Suggestions for headphones in a home-studio production (electronic/IDM)

[JohnYang1997]

Where is the excessive 3kHz response of the HD600 compared to the HD650 ? They only slightly differ in midbass boost. The lack thereoff in the HD600 may give the impression it sounds brighter.

I never heard the 'veil' by the way ... perhaps the 'veil' is perceived as such because it lacks the typical treble peaks in the 7 to 11kHz range most other headphones show ?
Removing the front foam doesn't do much for the FR. The foam is acoustically transparant and protects the driver from dust particles getting on the driver.

Foam is acoustic resistance. It will change the driving ability of the driver to the acoustic load of human ear. Also frequency tells most of the story. But if there 1db difference it's big enough to experience it. Also i do experience the sample variants of hd series to be excessive. I have heard hd600 has veil and some hd600 sounds like balance armature driver.

 

[JohnYang1997]

And as we discussed before, the measurements equipment isn't that accurate for the absolute response. Do you have speaker systems that you can take reference? I did equalization with hd600 with speakers that eqed to flat in room. And found excessive 3khz range. Not so much with hd650 which is less at top range but 3k is fine. 600 is mostly fine at the top. So I didn't say hd600 suffers from sennheiser veil but a little bit. I of course aware the peak of other headphones. But do you see why I said dt880pro instead of dt880? Because 880 has peak. 880pro solves it by higher clamping force. Whether or not it's intentional there is difference.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I describe the foam sound as dry. It sounds a bit dry and lacks a bit dynamic. That's what I hear and that's what I feel. A little bit of this can have effect on long term listening and in mixing.

 

[JohnYang1997]

You can take this measurements as reference. If you normalize this at 500hz. You will see exactly what I was talking about.
Hd600 ok highs more 3k
hd650 ok 3k less highs
source: speakerphone clarityfidelity

 

[JohnYang1997]

On a side note, that hd600 is not necessarily having too much 3khz. But the less energy around 2khz and a bit excessive 3.5khz response. And I was being a little absolute. People wearing headphone can hear things differently according to the size of pinna, earcanal, even size of the head(clampping force).
Can hd650 sounds absolutely fine? There is a big chance that is the case.
I personally have large pinna. So I perceive less high frequency from headphones. Your ears may be different.
https://clarityfidelity.blogspot.com/2015/05/introduction-measurement-procedures.html

 

[solderdude]

hmmm.. seems I touched a nerve.

Sonarworks comparison (using HATS) so above 6kHz variances can come from seating differences and correction errors)

No higher 3kHz... the HD600 in question (or are a few HD600's averaged here ?) do show 1 dB more between 6kHz and 10kHz.

 

[JohnYang1997]

hmmm.. seems I touched a nerve.

Sorry if it sounds that way to you. I just wanted to make sure nothing was ambiguous and wanted it to be as technically correct as possible. Hence too many posts.

 

[solderdude]

I know you aim to.
What's the technical correctness of the foam not being acoustically transparant, other than what you perceive knowing foam has been removed ?

But back on topic..
I suggest the Beyerdynamic DT250-250 but the sound leakage from the connector needs to be fixed as being tonally the most correct.
The Sony's have a treble peak which is fine for monitoring and checking for details but not desirable for mixing, for which I recommend good nearfield monitors instead of headphones.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I know you aim to.
What's the technical correctness of the foam not being acoustically transparant, other than what you perceive knowing foam has been removed ?

But back on topic..
I suggest the Beyerdynamic DT250-250 but the sound leakage from the connector needs to be fixed as being tonally the most correct.
The Sony's have a treble peak which is fine for monitoring and checking for details but not desirable for mixing, for which I recommend good nearfield monitors instead of headphones.

Not trying to drag the side topic too long maybe we can PM. The foam must not be acoustically transparent, if it is, does that mean adding more wouldn't make difference either right? I'm not saying it makes night and day difference. But it's small but can affect sound judgement.
But there is more. If it's transparent does removing it also not make difference? It does, i hear some resonance over 10khz besides that it's more transparent sounding. The foam definitely tames it down. It's obviously not transparent. So can I get both. So the akg disk/ring shaped foam does it for me.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Oh btw, does sonarworks use hats? It doesn't look like it at all. Is there document that shows it? I heard in the very first stage it uses diyed head. And I tryed their hd600 eq, which made everything worse like everything the opposite direction.

 

[solderdude]

I measured it a while ago... It isn't causing the 'Sennheiser veil' it does reduce the upper treble but (without and with foam) but the small differences can also be caused by a slightly different seating on the fixture. It certainly is within the error of measurement limits as one has to take off the pads, remove the foam, put back the pads and reseat the headphone.

I thought I read somewhere that Sonarworks uses a HATS but found no evidence.
In any case there is no 3kHz peak in their measurements.

This is all they want to say about their test method:

Sonarworks headphone measurement technology delivers Sonarworks PAPFR (Perceived acoustic power frequency response) technology on headphones. It is an innovative, patent pending measurement technology that measures headphone AFR as perceived by human ear rather than as measured by a measurement microphone.

Their measurements do seem to have a Pinna but possibly no ear canal.

 

[JohnYang1997]

View attachment 29326
I measured it a while ago... It isn't causing the 'Sennheiser veil' it does reduce the upper treble but (without and with foam) but the small differences can also be caused by a slightly different seating on the fixture. It certainly is within the error of measurement limits as one has to take off the pads, remove the foam, put back the pads and reseat the headphone.

I thought I read somewhere that Sonarworks uses a HATS but found no evidence.
In any case there is no 3kHz peak in their measurements.

I mean. Yes it does looks like there is difference which is also definitely big enough to be audible. And let's put the sennheiser veil aside. Of which my definition is different from most other people.
And sonarworks doesn't really look like any website that use real hats or the hats that I had used. But it's highly consistent with yours idk man. And excess 3k isn't really excess 3k could well be the lack of energy around 2k causing the perception of excess 3k. And there is actually a bit too much ar 3.5khz. Maybe we can at least agree that hd600 650 are good and great even. But just that according to my experience, I think it's not good enough for me to do mixing on.

 

[solderdude]

Both are excellent but not top tier. They lack on spatial cues and 'brilliance'
Excellent for its price and reference for tonal accuracy.
For mixing they are recommended but chances are bass will be over emphasized in the final mix.
EQíng the lows fixes that.

And yes, Sonarworks measurements do have similarities to mine so possible they use a DIY 'head' because they do not proudly show off an expensive HATS.

 

[fulffy512]

Er4s/er4sr is much flatter than most speakers in a room. Unless you have more than a grand to burn for acoustic treatment (diy does this as well but not very easy, cheap foam bass trap doesn't do anything). Also for a few hundred dollars, you are not getting anything good for mixing. Yamaha hs7 is the minimum I would trust (still not thoroughly).
You can just try to eq a few tracks, you will feel 10 times more confident and faster with er4. You move a few inch in a room will change the response you are hearing, so much more guess work and inconsistency. Surely when done properly and trained in that way, it's fine. But for a few hundred dollar set up and for non-professional studio. I don't see it very valid.

Yeah so many ignore that when they tell someone to go for monitors, You have spend i very high amount just to get a the proper listening experience which many can't do. The ER4SR and HD600 don't have that issue will be more netural in more consistently and the isolation is a win.

The whole soundstage, imagining and etc limitations on headphones/IEM's is highly exaggerated. Yeah no shock they will sound odd if you've been listening to a 2CH system for 25+ years and there a some good spatial DSP along with crossfeed that help as well.

I only use IEM's and all my recorded stuff was done on all of them no issue.

 

[pozz]

The 7506 excels in its midrange. There's distortion in the bass and the highs are good. Used it for mixing for ten or so years, by the way.

 

[gvl]

Recently picked Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 250 Ohm cans. Very pleased. They are undoubtedly bright, but even casual EQ around 10-12kHz makes them very livable with no fatigue. Very detailed and spacious sound, comfy too. My new favorites, $140 on Amazon now.

 

[ScofieldKid]

https://www.audiophileon.com/news/sennheiser-hd-251-ii-review
Kind of a standard, if you want something neutral...