Suggestion on Amplifier under $1000

[vvvyper]

Hi!

I own a pair of Mordaunt Short 908i, that I drive though a PC with EMU 1212m PCIe and a DENON 1909.

Mainly for music. Electronic, Rock, Pop.

I was thinking to improve through switching to a CXA81 but I just read your review

I could use the internal DAC or an external one, but I would like not to exceed the budget, I can buy used also, and I don't want a lower DAC performance than the EMU 1212m.

What I should think to? I was searching in NAD, ARCAM, ROTEL, DENON... but I am really open to "scientific" suggestions I was curious while reading on the LA90...but unsure if power is enough for my speakers.

My room is like here below, in comunication with the kitchen. Room is 3 mt heigh. One of the walls kitchen/living room you see is just 1.2 meters high.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi,
As always ... questions installed of answers

What is your budget? The new CXA81 is around £1000 GBP but the original was cheaper.

What are your sources - what inputs do you need?

Last one: what's wrong with your Denon, what improvements are you looking for?

Loads of options though, it's just choosing that's tricky.

 

[vvvyper]

Hi,
As always ... questions installed of answers

What is your budget? The new CXA81 is around £1000 GBP but the original was cheaper.

What are your sources - what inputs do you need?

Last one: what's wrong with your Denon, what improvements are you looking for?

Loads of options though, it's just choosing that's tricky.

You're right.

Source is FLAC files and TIDAL. So I can keep PC or use a streamer.

I find sound generally not clean. Voices, guitars, bass. Nothing precise.

No need of lots of inputs.

 

[DanielT]

You have speakers with pretty good sensitivity and they don't seem to be putting any tricky loads on the amp.

A good 50 watt amp should do the job well.

LAB REPORT:​

The generous 90dB sensitivity rating corresponds exactly with the manufacturer's claim, and is accompanied by a reasonably easy-to-drive impedance characteristic that stays above five ohms throughout. Similarly, bass extension registers a very healthy -9dB at 20Hz.

Mordaunt-Short Avant 908i review

Slim 'n' silver three-way with twin midrange drivers

www.techradar.com

If I had your speakers in the same listening room as you have, then for example NAD C 316BEE V2 with its power, 60 watts into 4 Ohms, 43 watts into 8 Ohms,would have been enough for me:
(correspondingly with, for example, 84 dB sensitive speakers, 172 amp watts would then have been needed to match that NAD's 43 watts with 90 dB sensitive speakers)

NAD C 316BEE V2 Integrated Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the NAD C 316BEE V2 integrated amplifier with phono stage and headphone jack. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $399. The unit feels just heavy enough to not feel cheap. Controls have a nice feel and can be managed with a remote...

audiosciencereview.com

If I wasn't going to EQ, then in that case I would have wanted a bit more amp power headroom.

Edit:
TS: I was curious while reading on the LA90...but unsure if power is enough for my speakers.
If you don't play at crazy high volume together with very dynamic music, its amp power is most likely sufficient.

 

[DanielT]

Last one: what's wrong with your Denon, what improvements are you looking for?

I wonder about that too. It seems to be an ok amplifier.

Denon AVR-1909

Home theater receiver with HDMI switching and video upconversion

www.crutchfield.com

 

[JeremyFife]

I'd be quite happy with the WiiM Amp Pro, does it all and offers room correction / EQ too.

You can go for separates: Topping PA5ii with a WiiM Pro Plus (streaming DAC) or a simpler DAC and stream from the PC.

The NAD integrated would be good too.

I've just realised that you specify the budget in the thread title (DOH!) you can spend more than I've suggested if you want.

Check the Review Index here, get a feel for some recommended options and see what you think

 

[vvvyper]

What I suffer with my configuration is that I do not feel sounds very "separated", I dont feel any stage. I had the possibility to hear my own speakers with another amplifier, and I felt like for example, the singer was in the room. Now I always feel the singer beside a speaker. Sound is not clean enough. I don't know hot to say it better... Anyway it is not very clear for me now what I should consider as a good option I feel like my Denon is not the right way to get what I need... Should another option be better? How choosing? WHy, for example the NAD316 should be better than my Denon? Or why Wiim should be better? Or Why a 10.000 usd option could be potentially better?

 

[Ogoript]

What I suffer with my configuration is that I do not feel sounds very "separated", I dont feel any stage. I had the possibility to hear my own speakers with another amplifier, and I felt like for example, the singer was in the room. Now I always feel the singer beside a speaker. Sound is not clean enough. I don't know hot to say it better... Anyway it is not very clear for me now what I should consider as a good option I feel like my Denon is not the right way to get what I need... Should another option be better? How choosing? WHy, for example the NAD316 should be better than my Denon? Or why Wiim should be better? Or Why a 10.000 usd option could be potentially better?

That can be speaker positioning issue as well. Have you tried to move them further apart or closer together? Do you have hard floors and/or windows near the speakers. All of these things can cause what you are referring to.

 

[mike70]

Soundstage is generated from the interaction of the speakers with the room.
Do you want better soundstage?
Invest in acoustics / positioning and speakers with better linearity / diffraction / etc.

From the amplifier you need clean and enough power, that's all.

 

[Timcognito]

Have you set up the Audyssey Laboratories' MultEQ® six-point auto setup and room calibration system (microphone included). I'd go there first and search Audyssey here as there are some threads. FWIW

 

[Count Dacula]

Just to state the obvious.... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../hypex-ncx500-class-d-amplifier-review.41007/

 

[Chrispy]

What I suffer with my configuration is that I do not feel sounds very "separated", I dont feel any stage. I had the possibility to hear my own speakers with another amplifier, and I felt like for example, the singer was in the room. Now I always feel the singer beside a speaker. Sound is not clean enough. I don't know hot to say it better... Anyway it is not very clear for me now what I should consider as a good option I feel like my Denon is not the right way to get what I need... Should another option be better? How choosing? WHy, for example the NAD316 should be better than my Denon? Or why Wiim should be better? Or Why a 10.000 usd option could be potentially better?

Think it's more a question of why you think the change from the Denon would do anything like that. When you demoed your speaker with your friend's amp, what was the amp? Did you just borrow the amp and used it in your speakers' usual location in your room? If not in your normal speaker location, could easily just be a difference in room. Most of the sound is from the speaker/room interaction, electronics not so much. I am also curious how you set up your Denon, in terms of what settings you've made or an eq being used. No other speakers/subs, just the pair?

 

[vvvyper]

Think it's more a question of why you think the change from the Denon would do anything like that. When you demoed your speaker with your friend's amp, what was the amp? Did you just borrow the amp and used it in your speakers' usual location in your room? If not in your normal speaker location, could easily just be a difference in room. Most of the sound is from the speaker/room interaction, electronics not so much. I am also curious how you set up your Denon, in terms of what settings you've made or an eq being used. No other speakers/subs, just the pair?

I perfectly understand that I should give more details Yes, I tried Audissey but...I don't like the correction. Unnatural. I also tried with an ECM8000+REW and foobar and correction file etc etc. Yes, better, but...

Then, a fried borrowed me a NAD C350. And, in one second, a big jump. No correction, no REW, nothing.
So, in my mind: my DENON is the main guilty.

So, my question: how I can state if an AMP is good or not? Beside DAC stage, and thinking only to sound quality, what is the difference (=what can i measure) that I can find between a 200$ and a 10.000$ amplifier? THis starts to be unclear for me

Shall I invest in a DIRAC ready resource?

 

[DanielT]

I perfectly understand that I should give more details Yes, I tried Audissey but...I don't like the correction. Unnatural. I also tried with an ECM8000+REW and foobar and correction file etc etc. Yes, better, but...

Then, a fried borrowed me a NAD C350. And, in one second, a big jump. No correction, no REW, nothing.
So, in my mind: my DENON is the main guilty.

So, my question: how I can state if an AMP is good or not? Beside DAC stage, and thinking only to sound quality, what is the difference (=what can i measure) that I can find between a 200$ and a 10.000$ amplifier? THis starts to be unclear for me

Shall I invest in a DIRAC ready resource?

And in your comparison you had no No correction, no REW, nothing also with your Denon in the comparison?

One thing that is easy to fool yourself about is different sound levels. I have done it myself. Then the result is usually, loudest sound = best sound.
Something that you thought about in your comparison? Same level of sound?

Then the next step after the level matching is done is to blind test the amplifiers. That so to erase any preconceived notions about how the amplifiers will sound. Remove the make-believe, the illusion factor, so to speak. Some workshop to get it right, but I mention it anyway.

Don't take offense now, but with your speakers and if there is nothing wrong with the amplifiers plus the same conditions when comparing them:
None or the same correction, EQ settings, level matching done and so on. If you then (if you don't blind test) still hear differences between them, I'm guessing it's because of:
By the way. I've been imagining things too,.

 

[vvvyper]

Ahahah Daniel....! MAybe Maybe! Yes I have to try. Mind is strange.

But I have still the "king question".

If I read your post, I also read "all amplifiers sound same". So, I don't undertstand why in reviews we test THD, multitone etc... ?

I think I miss something!

 

[DanielT]

If I read your post, I also read "all amplifiers sound same". So, I don't undertstand why in reviews we test THD, multitone etc... ?

Mostly to get a baseline. To see if amp X passes acceptable level Y. That's how I see it anyway. That level Y, let's say acceptable SINAD is individual.

Then you want to know if the amplifier has enough power.
For my own part, I also weigh in if the amplifier is load dependent. That can actually in some cases create audible differences between different amplifiers.
That depends on the impedance of the speakers and thus the load they give the amplifier to handle.

If the difference between two amps is, for example, 0.1% vs 0.01% distortion, do you think you can hear that difference?

Here's a distortion test. Just to get an idea of detectable distortion levels:

It gets even trickier if you consider that all the distortion is added in the HiFi, audio chain. So detecting the difference between said amplifiers by listening to speakers that have, for example, 0.5%-1% distortion does not make it easier.

Speaking of blind tests. Here you can check:

The amplifiers in the test:
Basic (cheap) system (A): Behringer A500 vs High End system (B): YBA 2A

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

Edit:
I remember now. There is a thread about that distortion test:

How Much Distortion Can you Hear?

An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Oddball]

I perfectly understand that I should give more details Yes, I tried Audissey but...I don't like the correction. Unnatural. I also tried with an ECM8000+REW and foobar and correction file etc etc. Yes, better, but...

Then, a fried borrowed me a NAD C350. And, in one second, a big jump. No correction, no REW, nothing.
So, in my mind: my DENON is the main guilty.

So, my question: how I can state if an AMP is good or not? Beside DAC stage, and thinking only to sound quality, what is the difference (=what can i measure) that I can find between a 200$ and a 10.000$ amplifier? THis starts to be unclear for me

Shall I invest in a DIRAC ready resource?

You will need to invest in time to get things right and amp will be the least of your worries. Speakers, positioning and your room overall will be most important. Room EQ is also important but not as easy as I tried it and it does not work. And it will require hardware change that is not inexpensive. If your amp is flat in frequency response and has 80-ish SINAD, will be difficult to distinguish it from 10K amp.

Can't see a reason why NAD would be right and Denon wrong - do you have some measurements of NAD to ascertain that it is transparent (which I would assume)?

 

[pinger]

What I suffer with my configuration is that I do not feel sounds very "separated", I dont feel any stage. I had the possibility to hear my own speakers with another amplifier, and I felt like for example, the singer was in the room. Now I always feel the singer beside a speaker. Sound is not clean enough. I don't know hot to say it better... Anyway it is not very clear for me now what I should consider as a good option I feel like my Denon is not the right way to get what I need... Should another option be better? How choosing? WHy, for example the NAD316 should be better than my Denon? Or why Wiim should be better? Or Why a 10.000 usd option could be potentially better?

ALL properly functioning solid state amplifiers sound the same. You buy amps for 1) build quality 2) looks 3) features 4) ergonomics 4) functionality. Thats pretty much it

 

[pinger]

You will need to invest in time to get things right and amp will be the least of your worries. Speakers, positioning and your room overall will be most important. Room EQ is also important but not as easy as I tried it and it does not work. And it will require hardware change that is not inexpensive. If your amp is flat in frequency response and has 80-ish SINAD, will be difficult to distinguish it from 10K amp.

Can't see a reason why NAD would be right and Denon wrong - do you have some measurements of NAD to ascertain that it is transparent (which I would assume)?

And please let us know which parameter measures "transparency"

 

[Chrispy]

I perfectly understand that I should give more details Yes, I tried Audissey but...I don't like the correction. Unnatural. I also tried with an ECM8000+REW and foobar and correction file etc etc. Yes, better, but...

Then, a fried borrowed me a NAD C350. And, in one second, a big jump. No correction, no REW, nothing.
So, in my mind: my DENON is the main guilty.

So, my question: how I can state if an AMP is good or not? Beside DAC stage, and thinking only to sound quality, what is the difference (=what can i measure) that I can find between a 200$ and a 10.000$ amplifier? THis starts to be unclear for me

Shall I invest in a DIRAC ready resource?

You have a old and primitive version of Audyssey (basic MultEQ). It's come a long ways since then (I have a few with more recent versions like XT and XT32 and use of apps, etc). Can only do so much with a pair of speakers, too and may be no particular reason to run it.

The NAD doesn't look to have any power advantage but one article mentions some sort of impedance sensing (output transformer?) and fairly good dynamic power. Could be the Denon has issues, too. Hard to know, perhaps it was simply "different" or you may have had a level difference issue or just normal expectation bias. I've used (and still have for the most part) a variety of avrs, and separates. I don't find significant differences between them as long as they're compared fairly (i.e. within their limits etc) and the amps are of decent quality.

Personally I just don't find the particular amp to be the top concern. If you really want a powerful amp I'd go separates in any case, most 2ch integrateds that have any decent power output are generally overpriced IMO and often lack useful features otherwise. $10k for an amp would be unnecessary I think. You can do very well for far less. $200 is probably too little unless you can deal with a low powered unit.

DIRAC I've heard good things about but don't have access thru my latest Denon, altho I almost bought one that did have that but then a license is extra too. I'm more exploring Audyssey options in that regard. For just two speakers not sure I'd get too excited either way.

Sometimes you just have to ignore a lot of the claims you'll read on the internet, too.