The commercial systems especially those embedded in equipment already take care of this by configuring delays. I believe Dirac does phase alignment. You can do this with REW as well to determine the acoustic distance via measurement and feeding that delay in whatever can handle that (like an AVR or a pre/pro or an external unit doing the room correction filters like the miniDSP). Acoustic distance for subs are usually at odds with the physical distance anyway even without correction.
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Suggestion for room correction hardware?
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The commercial systems especially those embedded in equipment already take care of this by configuring delays. I believe Dirac does phase alignment. You can do this with REW as well to determine the acoustic distance via measurement and feeding that delay in whatever can handle that (like an AVR or a pre/pro or an external unit doing the room correction filters like the miniDSP). Acoustic distance for subs are usually at odds with the physical distance anyway even without correction.
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As mentioned earlier, my speakers have built-in powered subwoofers, so I can't treat those frequencies separately, nor can I move the subwoofers, as they are built into my speakers.
I didn't say that I necessarily want the room equalization unit to stop correcting the response at a certain frequency - I simply said that I would like to be able to tweak the curves myself if I wish to do that. I simply won't know if I would like to do that until I try out the room correction unit. It might not be the treble I would like to adjust, it might be the bass. I can't say until I try it.
However, I would imagine that I would like to aim for the typical downward sloping curve that room correction units create, although I might want to tweak it a little bit here and there.
As mentioned earlier, I also have acoustic products installed (bass traps and first reflection absorbers from Gik Acoustics).
So, I'm considering writing and asking MiniDSP for a recommendation about what unit to choose, but the DDRC-88A that I mentioned earlier seems to fullfill all my criteria, as it has four analogue RCA inputs. It's possible that one of their other units might be just as useful, but I just missed it.
As mentioned earlier, I am considering switching from Naim to Arcam, but if I buy the DDRC-88A, then both amps would suit me equally well, as I would run my three sources through the room correction unit first and then into the amplifier afterwards. The Arcam A39 that I've been considering wouldn't be any better than the Naim if I buy another room correction unit than the DDRC-88A, as the A39 doesn't have a tape-loop, so I would still need to run my three sources through the room correction unit first (unless I've misunderstood something).
Raindance doesn't speak well of MiniDSP, while several of you other guys have suggested that brand. So I don't know what to think of them. Any thoughts?
I didn't say that I necessarily want the room equalization unit to stop correcting the response at a certain frequency - I simply said that I would like to be able to tweak the curves myself if I wish to do that. I simply won't know if I would like to do that until I try out the room correction unit. It might not be the treble I would like to adjust, it might be the bass. I can't say until I try it.
However, I would imagine that I would like to aim for the typical downward sloping curve that room correction units create, although I might want to tweak it a little bit here and there.
As mentioned earlier, I also have acoustic products installed (bass traps and first reflection absorbers from Gik Acoustics).
So, I'm considering writing and asking MiniDSP for a recommendation about what unit to choose, but the DDRC-88A that I mentioned earlier seems to fullfill all my criteria, as it has four analogue RCA inputs. It's possible that one of their other units might be just as useful, but I just missed it.
As mentioned earlier, I am considering switching from Naim to Arcam, but if I buy the DDRC-88A, then both amps would suit me equally well, as I would run my three sources through the room correction unit first and then into the amplifier afterwards. The Arcam A39 that I've been considering wouldn't be any better than the Naim if I buy another room correction unit than the DDRC-88A, as the A39 doesn't have a tape-loop, so I would still need to run my three sources through the room correction unit first (unless I've misunderstood something).
Raindance doesn't speak well of MiniDSP, while several of you other guys have suggested that brand. So I don't know what to think of them. Any thoughts?
@board - it all depends on the headroom their products offer. The older mini DSP unit I tried had very limited input and output voltages. You may have success with their newer products. Personally I'd probably look at their DIRAC stuff. I'd be interested to hear how it goes for you. I found none of these products to be transparent; they all increased noise, decreased headroom and had significant insertion loss. In comparison, my relatively inexpensive Marantz HT receiver manages to EQ bass maximally flat, and implements the Audyssey target curve without any of these drawbacks. The newer Marantz models even allow you to tweak the curve - although the app that provides access to the feature totally sucks. Perhaps one of the Marantz slim series AV receivers would be inexpensive enough to try for this task. Just an off the wall suggestion...
Newer miniDSP units have higher output, sometimes significantly higher, and better performance. Amir's measurements weren't that great on the one he tested (not a DDRC-88A IIRC) but they are used by a lot of folk. Probably the only way to know for sure is to try one.
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So, just to make sure:
If I use a MiniDSP unit would I be able to tweak the response curves the unit creates?
I read Amir's review of the MiniDSP 2x4 HD now, and it seems that although the DAC portion of that particular model wasn't amazing, a MiniDSP is probably the best solution for me.
Although I have considered buying a better measuring DAC than my current Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100, then I try to curb my enthusiasm with the fact that I simply wouldn't be able to hear any artefacts -90 or -100 dB below full scale. I've already tried playing a 1 kHz tone at -105 dB, and I had to turn the volume on my amp to maximum to be able to hear it. There's no way I would ever play music at even close to that level. So the artefacts a MiniDSP would add would almost surely be inaudible to me.
If I use a MiniDSP unit would I be able to tweak the response curves the unit creates?
I read Amir's review of the MiniDSP 2x4 HD now, and it seems that although the DAC portion of that particular model wasn't amazing, a MiniDSP is probably the best solution for me.
Although I have considered buying a better measuring DAC than my current Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100, then I try to curb my enthusiasm with the fact that I simply wouldn't be able to hear any artefacts -90 or -100 dB below full scale. I've already tried playing a 1 kHz tone at -105 dB, and I had to turn the volume on my amp to maximum to be able to hear it. There's no way I would ever play music at even close to that level. So the artefacts a MiniDSP would add would almost surely be inaudible to me.
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On another note: I've been reading the Stereophile review of the Arcam SR-250 that one of you posted. It seems like Dirac (which the SR-250 runs) lets you tweak the response curves, so maybe buying a SR-250 instead of an A39 would be an option if I decide to switch to an Arcam amp. A SR-250 is only €500 more than an A39, so I would save some money instead of buying a MiniDSP DDRC-88A - if I want Arcam instead of Naim.
I think I'll write Arcam and ask if the SR-250 and the A39 are supposed to sound the same. The local shop that let me try the A39 were very helpful, so they would probably also let me try the SR-250 at the same time as the A39 if I decide to audition that again.
The MiniDSP also runs Dirac, so I suppose that would mean that if I bought a MiniDSP unit I would also be able to tweak its curves.
I think I'll write Arcam and ask if the SR-250 and the A39 are supposed to sound the same. The local shop that let me try the A39 were very helpful, so they would probably also let me try the SR-250 at the same time as the A39 if I decide to audition that again.
The MiniDSP also runs Dirac, so I suppose that would mean that if I bought a MiniDSP unit I would also be able to tweak its curves.
You can tweak the curves on miniDSP or any AVR/processor running the "full" version of Dirca Live. I think only Emptiva rns a "light" version and charged you an extra $100 for the full version (they have said they are also shipping the full version with their new processors, if and when they get DL running).
ARCAM has revised their entire line and, afaik, the SR250 is discontinued.
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Yes, that is correct, but my local shop has one on their website, although I think it will be sent from the Spanish distributor, which then apparently has one.
Along with the A39 I actually tried the SA20 that North_Sky linked to, but I found the sound a bit too bright. But the A39 I liked more than the Naim in some ways (and in other ways not), which is why I had planned to try it again.
You did not want to use software which requiers muliple measurments. I'm using Mathaudio Room EQ https://mathaudio.com/room-eq.htm it is realy easy to use that compared with REW.
Basicly it is plugin your measuring mic an measure around 9 points 50cm separate (close monitor distance around 1 meter) at the location where you sit. Thats it an it is for free incombination with Foobar2000. I did this measurments in about 15 minutes with great results.
I would suggest give it a try.
Basicly it is plugin your measuring mic an measure around 9 points 50cm separate (close monitor distance around 1 meter) at the location where you sit. Thats it an it is for free incombination with Foobar2000. I did this measurments in about 15 minutes with great results.
I would suggest give it a try.
You may ask yourself what software you want to run. DSP and REW let you manipulate everything - you are fully responsible to ensure that sounding different means better. And it is all minimum phase. With Dirac you can be assured that you are not screwing up totally. And via the target curve you can still manipulate as you want. And phase is taken care for too.
Something like a NanoAvr from MiniDSP let you either use the onboard DAC which is not great but you have done so deep manipulation at that time that it probably matters little. Or you can upgrade and connect another DAC to the HDMI output. That gem is well hidden - a NanoAVR HDA with a messy Dirac upgrade that you need to do yourself.
You need to convert to digital first for the NanoAVR if you play vinyl, but then you have the chance a design the perfect phono-preamp via the NanoAvr.
Something like a NanoAvr from MiniDSP let you either use the onboard DAC which is not great but you have done so deep manipulation at that time that it probably matters little. Or you can upgrade and connect another DAC to the HDMI output. That gem is well hidden - a NanoAVR HDA with a messy Dirac upgrade that you need to do yourself.
You need to convert to digital first for the NanoAVR if you play vinyl, but then you have the chance a design the perfect phono-preamp via the NanoAvr.
For an easy to use system that still allows some tweaking, I'd suggest something with Anthem ARC.
One of their pre-pros or receivers would have the inputs you need, but the Paradigm PW Link processor (or the PW Amp) would also do the trick.
You can download the Anthem Genesis software and play with in demo mode.
https://www.anthemarc.com/downloads/
One of their pre-pros or receivers would have the inputs you need, but the Paradigm PW Link processor (or the PW Amp) would also do the trick.
You can download the Anthem Genesis software and play with in demo mode.
https://www.anthemarc.com/downloads/
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Thanks for the suggestion, but I was looking for hardware, not software. I don't want to have to run my entire setup through my computer, as I like having my computer switched off and read a book while I listen to music. Then hardware with at least three analogue inputs would come in handy.
Anthem STR preamp.
Plug in, measure, leave everything auto. Enjoy music.
I've never been listening to music for 1+ hour until I bought it and use ARC, I even forgot that time was flowing until it played the 1st song again.
My brother, who believed in high end stuffs, stop looking further, he even removed Qutest from the chain and use the built-in DAC. Last night he listened to music for 3hours straight.
Specs? 2 sites measured it and it handles everything just right. If thats what you wonder.
RC plays such big role
I and my bro now both agree that we listen to music now, not sound
You should just try
Plug in, measure, leave everything auto. Enjoy music.
I've never been listening to music for 1+ hour until I bought it and use ARC, I even forgot that time was flowing until it played the 1st song again.
My brother, who believed in high end stuffs, stop looking further, he even removed Qutest from the chain and use the built-in DAC. Last night he listened to music for 3hours straight.
Specs? 2 sites measured it and it handles everything just right. If thats what you wonder.
RC plays such big role
I and my bro now both agree that we listen to music now, not sound You should just try
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Thanks for your suggestion, Veeceem, but I think at $4000 this would break the budget, as so far I've been able to get a room correction unit for maximum one quarter of that price. Also, buying an Anthem would be buying a new pre-amp, and I'm not sure that I want to get rid of my current pre-amp, nor am I sure that an Anthem can be connected to a Naim.
But again, thanks for your suggestion - I know you just wanted to help, and I appreaciate that.
But again, thanks for your suggestion - I know you just wanted to help, and I appreaciate that
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According to this reddit post, 2x4 HD has pretty audible noise floor.
ernestcarl
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I always wonder about these folks and how they setup their systems. I don't hear any noise at 0.75-0.85m (nearfield desk setup) from my monitors. A foot and a half from the tweeters, yes, maybe. But who the hell wants to listen to monitors that close? People ought to measure the noise floor of their rooms, fridge and laundry machines, computers, vents, and HVAC systems as well 24/7 -- put things into perspective people.
A Paradigm PW Link might workThanks for your suggestion, Veeceem, but I think at $4000 this would break the budget, as so far I've been able to get a room correction unit for maximum one quarter of that price. Also, buying an Anthem would be buying a new pre-amp, and I'm not sure that I want to get rid of my current pre-amp, nor am I sure that an Anthem can be connected to a Naim.
But again, thanks for your suggestion - I know you just wanted to help, and I appreaciate that