Subwoofers that go below 30 hz for music

[sigbergaudio]

I just decided to order the Dynaudio 9S to pair with my Kali IN8-V2 monitors in my office. It should go down to 22hz @85dB +/-3dB. Haven't found any measurements yet though. I was also looking for subs that can go down well below 30hz that also didn't cost as much as the KH750 (I paid around $1K for the Dynaudio). And I needed the additional feature of having XLR inputs/outputs.

I'd be happy to try and take measurements of the subwoofer, but all I have is a UMIK-1, and not sure if that's sufficient to properly measure a subwoofer. And I don't have an anechoic chamber in my house

Umik-1 is perfectly fine to measure a subwoofer, both nearfield and in the listening position.

 

[Robbo99999]

I just decided to order the Dynaudio 9S to pair with my Kali IN8-V2 monitors in my office. It should go down to 22hz @85dB +/-3dB. Haven't found any measurements yet though. I was also looking for subs that can go down well below 30hz that also didn't cost as much as the KH750 (I paid around $1K for the Dynaudio). And I needed the additional feature of having XLR inputs/outputs.

I'd be happy to try and take measurements of the subwoofer, but all I have is a UMIK-1, and not sure if that's sufficient to properly measure a subwoofer. And I don't have an anechoic chamber in my house

Wouldn't the SVS SB 1000 Pro have been better and less money?

SB-1000 Pro Subwoofer | SVS

Sealed cabinet home audio subwoofer punches well above its class with stunning impact and musicality.

www.svsound.com

It's got a bigger woofer and specs say it goes lower, plus you can control all it's features from a smartphone app which is very useful and particularly if your subwoofer is in a difficult spot to access.

EDIT: it doesn't have the XLR inputs & outputs though, but I think XLR to RCA cables are a thing.

 

[starfly]

Wouldn't the SVS SB 1000 Pro have been better and less money?

SB-1000 Pro Subwoofer | SVS

Sealed cabinet home audio subwoofer punches well above its class with stunning impact and musicality.

www.svsound.com

It's got a bigger woofer and specs say it goes lower, plus you can control all it's features from a smartphone app which is very useful and particularly if your subwoofer is in a difficult spot to access.

EDIT: it doesn't have the XLR inputs & outputs though, but I think XLR to RCA cables are a thing.

I did look at that and maybe I’ll consider it if I don’t like the Dynaudio. I kinda wanted to have the XLR setup though. And another point in favor of the Dynaudio is the very small footprint.

 

[Robbo99999]

I did look at that and maybe I’ll consider it if I don’t like the Dynaudio. I kinda wanted to have the XLR setup though. And another point in favor of the Dynaudio is the very small footprint.

Is that because it's about staying balanced? You've got balanced DAC and amp, etc? (You know for avoidance of ground loops and stuff.)

 

[starfly]

Is that because it's about staying balanced? You've got balanced DAC and amp, etc? (You know for avoidance of ground loops and stuff.)

Yep, it’s all a studio setup (but I just use it in my office). Using Motu M4 audio interface with balanced outputs. Kali monitors also have XLR inputs.

 

[10PSPMemSticksForMiku2007]

It depends on what genre you listen to, but there's a fair bit of music with deeper bass than 30hz. I love this artist and the deep sub-bass of this music is so soothing. https://dusqk.bandcamp.com/album/sanctuary-os
If you do upgrade your sub, you might as well try some music that takes full advantage. It doesn't have to be too expensive if you're willing to make a large cabinet.

 

[WideEyedToad]

This is what Google says. I have no way of verifying if it's true or not, i havent seen any graphs showing roll off. However, my svs sb2000 sounds really good and I really have no complaints other than i want the 16" version.

 

[levimax]

This is what Google says. I have no way of verifying if it's true or not, i havent seen any graphs showing roll off. However, my svs sb2000 sounds really good and I really have no complaints other than i want the 16" version.

View attachment 473218

Take a look at the test done by a member here to get a perspective https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/ The SVS subs aren't a lot different than the other small subs, they have a lot of distortion below 40 Hz and barely play above the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz (which is ~75 dB). They do seem to have more group delay than most. In any case none of the subs in this test do a credible job of playing well below 30 Hz.... unless you think ~50%+ THD is OK.

 

[kyuu]

In any case none of the subs in this test do a credible job of playing well below 30 Hz.... unless you think ~50%+ THD is OK.

Eh? The Arendals, the B&W, and the DIY subwoofer all did pretty well.

 

[levimax]

Eh? The Arendals, the B&W, and the DIY subwoofer all did pretty well.

Yea I almost edited my post after I looked again I would say the one Arendals did OK in that it managed 100.1 dB at 20 Hz.... still very high distortion as the "pass" threshold @ 20 Hz is about 50% distortion.... I think less than 10% distortion is more like it. The DIY was 91 dB @ 20 Hz and and B&W 87 dB @ 20 Hz... these levels are not really useful in the event there actually is some 20 Hz content which this thread is about.

 

[Hayabusa]

Take a look at the test done by a member here to get a perspective https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/ The SVS subs aren't a lot different than the other small subs, they have a lot of distortion below 40 Hz and barely play above the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz (which is ~75 dB). They do seem to have more group delay than most. In any case none of the subs in this test do a credible job of playing well below 30 Hz.... unless you think ~50%+ THD is OK.

SB2000 pro can do 100dB@20Hz@2meter:

 

[levimax]

SB2000 pro can do 100dB@20Hz@2meter:
View attachment 473266

Not without massive distortion which is not really useful. The better chart to look at is the "pass fail" chart showing how much "clean" SPL (the "pass distortion" is ridiculously high at 20 Hz as well). Bottom line these small subs don't really do much below 30 Hz.... which is OK in many cases as there is not much to play below 30 Hz but that is not what this discussion is about.

 

[Hayabusa]

Not without massive distortion which is not really useful.

Can you tell me how much? Is there a lower SPL value where it could be use full? Do you have measurements, or just guessing?

 

[Robbo99999]

Can you tell me how much? Is there a lower SPL value where it could be use full? Do you have measurements, or just guessing?

You might find this graph useful, it was compiled by someone from the same tables that you were shown, compiled from the tables shown by the author of this thread:

Shows the max useful SPL (that fall within the "acceptable" distortion range) at any given frequency for the reviewed subs.

 

[levimax]

Can you tell me how much? Is there a lower SPL value where it could be use full? Do you have measurements, or just guessing?

The distortion thresholds for CEA-2010A and CEA-2010B are different and "proprietary", you have to subscribe and buy a paper explaining the tests. The distortion thresholds also have "order" limits i.e. 1st harmonic 2nd harmonic etc. For the B version the thresholds vary by frequency, lower frequency has higher thresholds for A they are the same at least for most frequencies (I don't have the secret paper) but in any case as far as I can piece together are ~15% to 20% THD @ 20 Hz depending on A or B and how the distortion breaks down between orders. There is disagreement if they are too high or not, I say yes and these high thresholds are BS and made up by the industry to make themselves look better than they are, others say they are OK, in any case there are NO studies of distortion audibility sited in either the A or B spec. I came across a study from 1988 that would indicate A and B thresholds are too high, see below . I think you can safely conclude that the distortion thresholds are quite high.

 

[kyuu]

I came across a study from 1988 that would indicate A and B thresholds are too high, see below . I think you can safely conclude that the distortion thresholds are quite high.

View attachment 473440

Where did that come from? The numbers appear to be garbage. What's with the 110% for 10Hz at 80dB, then for 100 and 110 dB the levels are way lower? Why don't the thresholds increase as frequency goes down and SPL goes up as we know it should? I don't think cherry picking one apparently suspect study is a good way to contradict the CEA test thresholds.

On what basis do you claim the thresholds are based on industry corruption? Just your gut feeling? Have you tried testing to see how high it has to get before you can identify it? We know that distortion levels have to be high before it becomes perceptible, and that at lower frequencies the thresholds for perception get higher.

 

[levimax]

Where did that come from? The numbers appear to be garbage. What's with the 110% for 10Hz at 80dB, then for 100 and 110 dB the levels are way lower? Why don't the thresholds increase as frequency goes down and SPL goes up as we know it should? I don't think cherry picking one apparently suspect study is a good way to contradict the CEA test thresholds.

On what basis do you claim the thresholds are based on industry corruption? Just your gut feeling? Have you tried testing to see how high it has to get before you can identify it? We know that distortion levels have to be high before it becomes perceptible, and that at lower frequencies the thresholds for perception get higher.

If you can find another study great , please post it, I certainly don't think this is definative but at least they tried, which is more than you can say about the CEA standard where they apparently just made the numbers up or got industry input (which is my guess but I obviously can't prove it). Without studies how do you even know that we are less sensitive to LF distortion? I could make an argument that we might be more sensitive to LF distortion because of fletcher munson. Our hearing is 20 dB more sensitive to 40 Hz than 20 Hz ... so @ 50% distortion the 1st harmonic sounds just as loud as the fundamental. Is that "Hi-Fi? I don't know but my main point is the technology exists to make subs that play to 20 Hz with high SPL and very low distortion so why not reward companies that make these subs rather than mislead people to believe they are getting something that they are not?

 

[sigbergaudio]

The distortion thresholds for CEA-2010A and CEA-2010B are different and "proprietary", you have to subscribe and buy a paper explaining the tests. The distortion thresholds also have "order" limits i.e. 1st harmonic 2nd harmonic etc. For the B version the thresholds vary by frequency, lower frequency has higher thresholds for A they are the same at least for most frequencies (I don't have the secret paper) but in any case as far as I can piece together are ~15% to 20% THD @ 20 Hz depending on A or B and how the distortion breaks down between orders. There is disagreement if they are too high or not, I say yes and these high thresholds are BS and made up by the industry to make themselves look better than they are, others say they are OK, in any case there are NO studies of distortion audibility sited in either the A or B spec. I came across a study from 1988 that would indicate A and B thresholds are too high, see below . I think you can safely conclude that the distortion thresholds are quite high.

View attachment 473440

The 2010 standards are available here, the most recent update was last year:

Resources: Loudspeaker and subwoofer measurement standards

ANSI / CTA 2034 (Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers, 2015) ANSI / CTA 2010-C (Standard Method of Measurement for Subwoofers, 2024) ANSI / CTA 2010-B (Standard Method of Measurement for Subwoofers, 2014) CEA 2010 (Standard Method of Measurement for Subwoofers, 2006)

www.sigbergaudio.com

 

[sigbergaudio]

If you can find another study great , please post it, I certainly don't think this is definative but at least they tried, which is more than you can say about the CEA standard where they apparently just made the numbers up or got industry input (which is my guess but I obviously can't prove it). Without studies how do you even know that we are less sensitive to LF distortion? I could make an argument that we might be more sensitive to LF distortion because of fletcher munson. Our hearing is 20 dB more sensitive to 40 Hz than 20 Hz ... so @ 50% distortion the 1st harmonic sounds just as loud as the fundamental. Is that "Hi-Fi? I don't know but my main point is the technology exists to make subs that play to 20 Hz with high SPL and very low distortion so why not reward companies that make these subs rather than mislead people to believe they are getting something that they are not?

Very high SPL at 20hz requires very big subs. Not everyone wants very big subs.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Very high SPL at 20hz requires very big subs. Not everyone wants very big subs.

Quite so but I suspect like in many engineering efforts near extremes what people want and what is technically feasible diverge

An old bloke like me who enjoys "The Dream of Gerontius" would rather have the bass than the treble, I probably hear nothing above 10kHz, probably less, but I still find the low organ pedal notes in the final "softly and gently" are a key aspect of this very moving piece but have only ever heard them on one system (mine) using a very old REL Studio, bought from Richard Lloyd in Wales when he still owned the company.
On most HiFi one wouldn't know they exist.
Personally I would MUCH rather have "listenable" the lowest octave from 20-40 Hz than the highest octave from 10-20kHz which I can no longer hear even though it is only on a few pieces of music.