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Subwoofer upgrade.....Decisions, Decisions....Please Help!

raistlin65

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I know my room is very large and for my budget, I can live with one sub and purchase another later on as I really don't want to spend more than that at this moment but I also don't want to buy one sub and go backward between now and then before I add another sub.My current subs are in a custom-built entertainment stand
Well, it's not going to fit in the entertainment center. But I think this sub would likely perform well in your giant room


It's 140lbs. So don't plan on moving it by yourself :)
 
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Well, it's not going to fit in the entertainment center. But I think this sub would likely perform well in your giant room


It's 140lbs. So don't plan on moving it by yourself :)
I have a single TV2112 in my setup (20x20x20 room that's open to kitchen, dining room, and an upstairs landing) and I can tell you that it does not lack for output. I'll plug PSA here, I know they're not cheap (or light) but I the value proposition is in the crazy amounts of output you get.

I'd actually love to get measurements on my 2112 but haven't the slightest idea how to make that happen given it's size.
 

Spkrdctr

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Make sure you get a big ported sub. Do not bother with sealed subs as they are old tech that has been easily exceeded by ported. Get a big SVS and you get the remote with EQ and a nice warranty and fantastic over the top customer service. Plate amps are the number one electronic item to go bad in home audio. SVS, will stand by the product under warranty and if out of warranty will still sell you a new plate amp to install. Just get as big as you can afford. Also, when you look at output specs, make sure you concentrate on the BELOW 30hz. Even cheap crappy subs will do 40 and 50hz decently, but a good sub needs to go low to around 20 to 25 before a rapid drop off. The SVS 3000 ported should do the trick, or dual SVS 2000Pro. They are the biggest subwoofer seller in North America because they make great products with great service. Follow these simple rules and you will be very happy with your purchase. Good Luck!

Oh, and I wanted say how important the remote control option SVS has on the on the phone is. I don't have remote control and I hate getting up to constantly change the volume as different songs play on my streaming service. Pain in the butt!!
 

sigbergaudio

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Make sure you get a big ported sub. Do not bother with sealed subs as they are old tech that has been easily exceeded by ported. Get a big SVS and you get the remote with EQ and a nice warranty and fantastic over the top customer service. Plate amps are the number one electronic item to go bad in home audio. SVS, will stand by the product under warranty and if out of warranty will still sell you a new plate amp to install. Just get as big as you can afford. Also, when you look at output specs, make sure you concentrate on the BELOW 30hz. Even cheap crappy subs will do 40 and 50hz decently, but a good sub needs to go low to around 20 to 25 before a rapid drop off. The SVS 3000 ported should do the trick, or dual SVS 2000Pro. They are the biggest subwoofer seller in North America because they make great products with great service. Follow these simple rules and you will be very happy with your purchase. Good Luck!

Oh, and I wanted say how important the remote control option SVS has on the on the phone is. I don't have remote control and I hate getting up to constantly change the volume as different songs play on my streaming service. Pain in the butt!!

With regards to sealed/ported: That's just not true at all, on the contrary sealed subs are becoming more and more common due to more power becoming easily available with modern class D. Ported designs still make sense in very large subwoofers that can be tuned very low, while with small to moderate sized cabinets a sealed design is the way to go.

With regards to volume control, if you need to constantly change the volume of your subwoofer depending on what is playing, it's likely not integrated well and/or have a very uneven in-room response.
 

raistlin65

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I have a single TV2112 in my setup (20x20x20 room that's open to kitchen, dining room, and an upstairs landing) and I can tell you that it does not lack for output. I'll plug PSA here, I know they're not cheap (or light) but I the value proposition is in the crazy amounts of output you get.

I'd actually love to get measurements on my 2112 but haven't the slightest idea how to make that happen given it's size.

I have a V1512 and V1510 in my open living room that is approximately 6,000 cubic feet. They have no problems providing more bass than I need. lol

I do think for $2500, one of the high output PSA subs is the OP's best options given the size of his room. Especially since he indicated he could start with one and order another down the road. It's just a question of if he has the space to place them.
 

Spkrdctr

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With regards to sealed/ported: That's just not true at all, on the contrary sealed subs are becoming more and more common due to more power becoming easily available with modern class D. Ported designs still make sense in very large subwoofers that can be tuned very low, while with small to moderate sized cabinets a sealed design is the way to go.

With regards to volume control, if you need to constantly change the volume of your subwoofer depending on what is playing, it's likely not integrated well and/or have a very uneven in-room response.
First, the sub volume is the crappy different volumes that the songs play at for the input. If I play a commercial CD, the entire CD is at the same volume, go to Amazon Music HD and each song (exaggeration) has a different volume.
I'm wondering when you say that a sealed sub in small to moderate size cabinets are the way to go, are you talking with decent output at 20hz? Most sealed subs that I have looked at start dropping off too early. Thus, the sheer output down deep is just not there. This has caused thousands of consumers to replace their sealed with ported subs. Plus the cost/performance ratio seems better with ported also. Now I suppose a company could make a sealed sub that is very expensive to compete with a good ported sub that is cheaper, but why bother? I have just heard so many people (A butt load, or ton of) that are/were unhappy with a sealed sub. They get a ported sub and they are then quite happy. I say skip to the ported first and be happy!
 

sigbergaudio

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First, the sub volume is the crappy different volumes that the songs play at for the input. If I play a commercial CD, the entire CD is at the same volume, go to Amazon Music HD and each song (exaggeration) has a different volume.
I'm wondering when you say that a sealed sub in small to moderate size cabinets are the way to go, are you talking with decent output at 20hz? Most sealed subs that I have looked at start dropping off too early. Thus, the sheer output down deep is just not there. This has caused thousands of consumers to replace their sealed with ported subs. Plus the cost/performance ratio seems better with ported also. Now I suppose a company could make a sealed sub that is very expensive to compete with a good ported sub that is cheaper, but why bother? I have just heard so many people (A butt load, or ton of) that are/were unhappy with a sealed sub. They get a ported sub and they are then quite happy. I say skip to the ported first and be happy!

  • sub volume: I'm not following. Are you adjusting the volume of the entire spectrum or just the subwoofer? if you are just adjusting the subwoofer volume, I stand by my original argument.
  • There are good and bad sealed subs, and good and bad ported subwoofers. If you don't care about the size of your subwoofer, a huge ported subwoofer is obviously great. Most people can't fit just any size in their living room. There are a number of sealed, compact subwoofers with decent low-end output.
  • "This has caused thousands of consumers to replace their sealed with ported subs" - this sounds like a made up fact.
  • To match your anecdote, I have heard a ton of people who are very happy with their sealed subs. Again if you are looking for a compact subwoofer, making a well behaved ported subwoofer without port noises is pretty difficult, and you won't be able to get the port tuning low enough. The result is that it actually has LESS low-end output than a sealed subwoofer, because the latter will have a 12dB roll-off as opposed to 24dB below port tuning on a ported subwoofer.

This is all somewhat off-topic probably since OT seem to be looking for a subwoofer where the only important thing is sound quality, and he apparently doesn't care about looks or size. Then a larger ported subwoofer may well be the way to go. But it's not the universal truth in every situation.
 

Spkrdctr

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  • sub volume: I'm not following. Are you adjusting the volume of the entire spectrum or just the subwoofer? if you are just adjusting the subwoofer volume, I stand by my original argument.
  • There are good and bad sealed subs, and good and bad ported subwoofers. If you don't care about the size of your subwoofer, a huge ported subwoofer is obviously great. Most people can't fit just any size in their living room. There are a number of sealed, compact subwoofers with decent low-end output.
  • "This has caused thousands of consumers to replace their sealed with ported subs" - this sounds like a made up fact.
  • To match your anecdote, I have heard a ton of people who are very happy with their sealed subs. Again if you are looking for a compact subwoofer, making a well behaved ported subwoofer without port noises is pretty difficult, and you won't be able to get the port tuning low enough. The result is that it actually has LESS low-end output than a sealed subwoofer, because the latter will have a 12dB roll-off as opposed to 24dB below port tuning on a ported subwoofer.

This is all somewhat off-topic probably since OT seem to be looking for a subwoofer where the only important thing is sound quality, and he apparently doesn't care about looks or size. Then a larger ported subwoofer may well be the way to go. But it's not the universal truth in every situation.
Sadly it is just the sub.
Your bullet point #2 I agree with as every "rule of thumb" has exceptions such as room décor etc.
#3 It isn't a made up fact I can go on numerous audio or speaker makers sites and people post about the switch. But, after buying the sealed, I would assume the only people that switched could afford too.
#4 In a size constrained situation you may only have the option of a sealed as they are smaller than ported. So, the situation has made the decision, not really the total performance.

So, in the end we kind of agree but it took this last post to tease it out into the open. If the purchaser needs a sealed sub for some reason then yes it is a viable option no doubt. But, if they have no restrictions I would say go ported. I'm not saying it is the universal truth, just a big truth to think about when buying. So, I guess we are in agreement. We need to contact Amir as the first two people on ASR to agree after a few posts. Usually after a few posts the flame war is on!
 

radix

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Sadly it is just the sub.
Your bullet point #2 I agree with as every "rule of thumb" has exceptions such as room décor etc.
#3 It isn't a made up fact I can go on numerous audio or speaker makers sites and people post about the switch. But, after buying the sealed, I would assume the only people that switched could afford too.
#4 In a size constrained situation you may only have the option of a sealed as they are smaller than ported. So, the situation has made the decision, not really the total performance.

So, in the end we kind of agree but it took this last post to tease it out into the open. If the purchaser needs a sealed sub for some reason then yes it is a viable option no doubt. But, if they have no restrictions I would say go ported. I'm not saying it is the universal truth, just a big truth to think about when buying. So, I guess we are in agreement. We need to contact Amir as the first two people on ASR to agree after a few posts. Usually after a few posts the flame war is on!
There's also dual opposed sealed box subs. Many brands, like the Dynaudio, Arendal, ELAC, REL, a few from Rythmik, and a bunch more (see sweetchaos' spreadsheet) have sealed subs. AFAIK, those are all good subs.

I suspect price point has something to do with it.
 

BikeSmith60

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With regards to sealed/ported: That's just not true at all, on the contrary sealed subs are becoming more and more common due to more power becoming easily available with modern class D. Ported designs still make sense in very large subwoofers that can be tuned very low, while with small to moderate sized cabinets a sealed design is the way to go.

With regards to volume control, if you need to constantly change the volume of your subwoofer depending on what is playing, it's likely not integrated well and/or have a very uneven in-room response.
Sealed-ported subs for music only. Obvious.
 

F1308

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My favourite is neither ported nor sealed...
Want to hear what 5Hz sounds like?
It requires no equalization to achieve flat response to below 1Hz.
Needs an infinite baffle...

What is it ? A propeller ?

Frequency Response: 1Hz : 30Hz ± 4dB

Maximum Acoustic Output: >115dB between 1 and 20Hz.

Distortion: Typically 3% or less between 1 and 20Hz @90dB


 
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sigbergaudio

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My favourite is neither ported nor sealed...
Want to hear what 5Hz sounds like?
It requires no equalization to achieve flat response to below 1Hz.
Needs an infinite baffle...

What is it ? A propeller ?

Frequency Response: 1Hz : 30Hz ± 4dB

Maximum Acoustic Output: >115dB between 1 and 20Hz.

Distortion: Typically 3% or less between 1 and 20Hz @90dB



It would be fun to hear what 5hz sounds like, unfortunately we can't. :)
 

F1308

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It would be fun to hear what 5hz sounds like, unfortunately we can't. :)
Latest findings (1974) after testing human hearing below 100 Hz showed that sound would be perceived if loudness...

4 Hz @ 116 dB.
8 Hz @ 104 dB.
16 Hz @ 92 dB.

Around 12 dB per octave.

And the rotary woofer promises 115dB.


:):):):)
 
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D

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With regards to volume control, if you need to constantly change the volume of your subwoofer depending on what is playing, it's likely not integrated well and/or have a very uneven in-room response.
Sorry that is misleading.Not all music and movies are mastered and eq'd the same way.It's only natural to adjust the subwoofer volume accordingly.
 

sigbergaudio

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@Chickasaw Mudpuppy Not really. If you keep switching between 2000s pop music and 1970s rock music there will obviously be a difference in bass content, but if adjusting the subwoofer volume feels like something that is "only natural" to do whenever switching tracks, it's a pretty safe bet that your subwoofer / bass response is uneven due to room nodes and/or poor integration with the speakers.

For reference I never adjust subwoofer volume despite a pretty wide taste across genres and production years.
 
D

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@Chickasaw Mudpuppy Not really. If you keep switching between 2000s pop music and 1970s rock music there will obviously be a difference in bass content, but if adjusting the subwoofer volume feels like something that is "only natural" to do whenever switching tracks, it's a pretty safe bet that your subwoofer / bass response is uneven due to room nodes and/or poor integration with the speakers.

For reference I never adjust subwoofer volume despite a pretty wide taste across genres and production years.
Well all I can say is you must not listen to much different types of media and/or insensitive to output levels.It has nothing to do with proper integration.All the wildly varying eq and mastering decisions made in countless media lead to some level adjustment across the entire frequency spectrum,not just bass,quite often in my experience.
 

sigbergaudio

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Well all I can say is you must not listen to much different types of media and/or insensitive to output levels.It has nothing to do with proper integration.All the wildly varying eq and mastering decisions made in countless media lead to some level adjustment across the entire frequency spectrum,not just bass,quite often in my experience.

We agree that not all music is mixed equally, we do not agree that is something you should try to fix for every song. But that is of course up to you. :) Having this need in the bass in particular, is very often a result of uneven frequency response in the lower octaves. If that is the case in your system I can only speculate.
 

DonH56

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My first sub was a DIY servo design ca. 1980-something. I built it to go with my Maggies because other subs at the time were too pricey for a college kid and I was not happen with their performance, mainly their transient response. Servo improved step response, let me flatten the frequency response, and compensated several distortion mechanisms. It outperformed most any sub I had access to at the time (working for a dealer -- as a tech -- and involved with several others).

Fast forward about thirty years and I needed a new sub. After researching I found Dr. Brian Ding's Rythmik subs used a very similar servo design and the guy is very sharp (we have similar day jobs). I ended up with four sealed F12's in my little room -- not for output, but to help smooth the response. I run them as a mono group; I went back and forth on stereo subs many times over the years and always found stereo was (much) more trouble than it was worth (other folk differ). I like sealed because they had better transient response than ported (largely alleviated with either a servo, good design and large amp, or both), don't have to worry about "chuffing", and I get a little lower in-room response since they roll off slower than ported designs (not usually a big deal now when e.g. Rythmik's 3 dB corner is ~14 Hz; back then, 30~40 Hz was common for a sub, so the extra octave or so a sealed sub provided was a much bigger deal).

So, I really like Rythmik, but am very biased and there are a number of good choices these days.

Even in a large room, or maybe especially, I'd go with two subs even if a little smaller than one large one simply to better smooth the in-room response. One someplace up front and the other near-field or as close as possible, or otherwise placed to help compensate any SBIR/room mode nulls at the listening position (see the Welti or Geddes papers).

FWIWFM - Don
 
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