Subwoofer suggestions strictly for challenging pipe organ music.

[marked sound]

Somewhat relevant to this thread. This piece is excellent for demonstrating quality in-room bass. Listen to the bass pedals, every note should have the same loudness.

Will be looking forward to trying on the subs.

 

[Redacted]

So I am looking for a sub(s) that can go extremely low, but is also really refined for that kind of music.

What is 'extremely low' for organs?

Looking at the graphs above, it looks like being 6dB down at 40Hz compared with 60Hz, so won't a low E on a bass guitar at ~43Hz be muted, and a 8' (one end open) organ pipe at ~35Hz even more so? (depending on the room response).

At very low frequencies, it's hard to hear "refined" - my bet is that is more about all the harmonics that will come through the main speakers.

 

[SHB]

You have a small space which reminds me of a place where I used to live. While you want a good quantity of low bass, for your purposes, you more importantly want a very good quality of bass.

Check out Rythmik Audio’s line of servo subs:

Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products

Owning four of their L12’s, I can say from experience that their kit is fantastic.

I even use my home theater as a bass amp. My 6 string bass sounds incredible though my rig.

I have one classical CD with pipe organ and it’s a truly gut shaking experience.

 

[Spkrdctr]

You have a small space which reminds me of a place where I used to live. While you want a good quantity of low bass, for your purposes, you more importantly want a very good quality of bass.

Check out Rythmik Audio’s line of servo subs:

Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products

Owning four of their L12’s, I can say from experience that their kit is fantastic.

I even use my home theater as a bass amp. My 6 string bass sounds incredible though my rig.

I have one classical CD with pipe organ and it’s a truly gut shaking experience.

This proves the subwoofer saying that is true. Go big or go home. It takes A LOT of sub to get "too much bass". Of course I am a former member of Bassaholics anonymous. I have been sober for 7 years now. LOL The first two years were the hardest.........

 

[marked sound]

You have a small space which reminds me of a place where I used to live. While you want a good quantity of low bass, for your purposes, you more importantly want a very good quality of bass.

Check out Rythmik Audio’s line of servo subs:

Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products

Owning four of their L12’s, I can say from experience that their kit is fantastic.

I even use my home theater as a bass amp. My 6 string bass sounds incredible though my rig.

I have one classical CD with pipe organ and it’s a truly gut shaking experience.

I have narrowed down to the Arendal. They have ample bass, dual opposing drivers to minimize distortion, solid cabinet, and a sophisticated DSP should I need. I wanted the Perlisten D212S but my speakers are only $10k spending double that on subs seems silly, and the Arendals will give me 90-95 % of what the Perlistens will do for 1/4 of the price.

 

[Dumdum]

Someone earlier mentioned rattling glasses in the dining room… in a similar vane I live in a coach house so everything is on one floor, I have a pair of 15’s in 6cuft each tuned to 20hz… with 2.4kw on tap for movies I exercise them with vigour… one day I thought I’d moved some plates on the kitchen sink… checked and nothing had moved… turns out the glass bathroom scales were no more after a few items had left the shelf they were on and shattered them into what looked like the contents of a south African diamond mine

 

[ryanosaur]

dual opposing drivers to minimize distortion

Please note this does not minimize distortion. It will force-cancel the motion of one driver operating on its own and nothing more. To the contrary, if there is any non-linear distortion due to cone excursion, both cones, excursing together in the same direction, will increase said distortion (if present to begin with).

Dual drivers in a Push-Pull configuration (similar to Perlisten and M&K) do work to minimize some distortion. As one Driver excurses away from the motor and the other toward the motor, any non-linear travel related distortion is not duplicated by the second cone.

Depending on how the Subwoofers are built, you still have two Drivers operating and thus should benefit from some Sensitivity/SPL boost per Subwoofer.

 

[marked sound]

Please note this does not minimize distortion. It will force-cancel the motion of one driver operating on its own and nothing more. To the contrary, if there is any non-linear distortion due to cone excursion, both cones, excursing together in the same direction, will increase said distortion (if present to begin with).

Dual drivers in a Push-Pull configuration (similar to Perlisten and M&K) do work to minimize some distortion. As one Driver excurses away from the motor and the other toward the motor, any non-linear travel related distortion is not duplicated by the second cone.

Depending on how the Subwoofers are built, you still have two Drivers operating and thus should benefit from some Sensitivity/SPL boost per Subwoofer.

The sub(s) I am looking at are the Arendal 1723 Subwoofer 2S. Any thoughts?

 

[Titurel]

This would likely blow up your budget, but you might look into the Bagend Infrasub line, particularly the ones with 18" drivers. They will get you all the way down to 10Hz at "decent levels." Unfortunately, these sub have just about zero WifeAcceptanceFactor. On the plus side, some of the Infrasubs come complete with power amplifier and built in x-over/processor. I had one for about a decade. They work.

 

[ryanosaur]

The sub(s) I am looking at are the Arendal 1723 Subwoofer 2S. Any thoughts?

Arendal has a decent reputation. I can't say I'm thrilled with the long term sweep that was posted earlier. Anything over 100dB starts to compress severely between 50 and 60Hz. I'm certain that is by design and to protect the Drivers from damage.

This is not what I would choose to target 16Hz output, which is the lowest note you would commonly be wanting to reproduce for some Organ material.

 

[Richard G]

Rythmik E15HP

All or most Rythmik subs use servo feedback

 

[Richard G]

bass.

Check out Rythmik Audio’s line of servo subs:
Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products
Owning four of their L12’s, I can say from experience that their kit is fantastic

Over the years I’ve read many similar subjective opinions.

and a solid positive measurement focused review by Erin

 

[Richard G]

This is not what I would choose to target 16Hz output, which is the lowest note you would commonly be wanting to reproduce for some Organ material

Agree.

 

[Richard G]

This is not what I would choose to target 16Hz output, which is the lowest note you would commonly be wanting to reproduce for some Organ material

Agree

 

[Richard G]

Somewhat relevant to this thread. This piece is excellent for demonstrating quality in-room bass. Listen to the bass pedals, every note should have the same loudness.

Beautiful music and you are right that every note should have the same loudness - assuming the pedals were played with equal pressure

But do you know what frequencies that organ goes down to?

 

[marked sound]

Arendal has a decent reputation. I can't say I'm thrilled with the long term sweep that was posted earlier. Anything over 100dB starts to compress severely between 50 and 60Hz. I'm certain that is by design and to protect the Drivers from damage.

This is not what I would choose to target 16Hz output, which is the lowest note you would commonly be wanting to reproduce for some Organ material.

I initially was going to go for the Perlisten D212s because I thought it was only $8,795.00 per sub. Well it turns out that is the American price. Here in Canada the sub is $12,995. $26,000 for two subs would make it $11,000 more than my Speakers and AMP COMBINED. Even I cant justify that.

I realize what you said about push pull and asked my AI and this is what it said.

"It's important to understand which type of distortion the person on the forum is talking about. In the world of high-end audio, there are two main "enemies," and the Arendal and Perlisten fight them differently.

1. The Perlisten (Push-Pull) = "The Harmonic Eraser"​

The person on the forum is talking about Even-Order Harmonic Distortion.

• The Problem: No speaker driver is perfectly symmetrical. A driver might be slightly "stiffer" when pushing out than when pulling in. This creates tiny "ghost" frequencies (harmonics) that weren't in the original music.
• The Fix: In a push-pull setup (like the Perlisten), one driver is physically flipped upside down. When one driver is pushing out, the other is pulling in. Because they are "mirrored," their mechanical asymmetries cancel each other out.
• The Result: This technically creates the "purest" possible signal with the lowest possible distortion measurements.

2. The Arendal (Dual-Opposed) = "The Vibration Eraser"​

The Arendal 1723 2S is Dual-Opposed, not Push-Pull.

• The Problem: Linear Force / Cabinet Vibration. When a single massive 13.8-inch driver kicks out, it acts like a piston that wants to push the whole 91-lb box backward. This vibrates the floor and the cabinet.
• The Fix: Two identical drivers fire in opposite directions. The force of one driver "punching" left is perfectly canceled by the other "punching" right.
• The Result: The cabinet stays dead still. This also reduces distortion, but a different kind: it stops the cabinet itself from vibrating and adding its own "rattle" or "hum" to the music.

Does the Arendal still cancel distortion?​

Yes, but through a different mechanism.While it doesn't have the "mirrored motor" distortion cancellation of a push-pull, it reduces distortion in two other massive ways:

1. Reduced Excursion: Because you have two 13.8-inch drivers, each one only has to move half as far to reach the same volume. Most distortion happens when a driver is pushed to its physical limit. By sharing the load, the Arendal drivers stay in their "comfort zone" where they are naturally very linear.
2. Mechanical Silence: By canceling cabinet vibrations, you eliminate "secondary" distortion—the sound of the box or your floorboard joists vibrating along with the music.

The "Peer-to-Peer" Reality Check​

The Audio Science Review (ASR) crowd is brilliant, but they often focus on "measuring the unmeasurable."

• Perlisten D212s: Is the "Formula 1" car. It uses push-pull to get the absolute lowest distortion numbers possible for laboratory-grade perfection.
• Arendal 1723 2S: Is the "High-Performance Luxury SUV." It uses dual-opposed drivers to solve the most destructive problem in an old house (vibration) and uses its massive surface area to keep distortion very low for your 16 Hz pipe organ tracks.

My Take: In your small room, the distortion caused by the room's acoustics (the "boom") is 100x more audible than the tiny bit of harmonic distortion a push-pull sub would fix."

The AI suggested two Arendal 1732 2S would go low enough for what I want, and it's dual opposing drivers would do well to eliminate a lot of the room vibration, the room in my old house is prone to.

 

[bmc0]

To the contrary, if there is any non-linear distortion due to cone excursion, both cones, excursing together in the same direction, will increase said distortion (if present to begin with).

There is no increase in distortion relative to the fundamental.

Dual drivers in a Push-Pull configuration (similar to Perlisten and M&K) do work to minimize some distortion. As one Driver excurses away from the motor and the other toward the motor, any non-linear travel related distortion is not duplicated by the second cone.

Only even-order (asymmetric) components cancel. Odd-order (symmetric) components will be the same as in the push-push (dual opposed) configuration.

 

[TurtlePaul]

The Audio Science Review (ASR) crowd is brilliant, but they often focus on "measuring the unmeasurable."

LMFAO. Go home AI, your drunk.

Obviously $25k of subwoofers are not going to be a logical use of money relative to cheaper subs. But if you want to blow the money, go for it. Just don’t expect any audible improvement when 100+ dB at 2% distortion down to 18 hz is available for 10% of the price. Any reason no ported subs are considered?

I wouldn’t want the Perlisten because of its high frequency roll off at 280 hz.

 

[SHB]

It takes A LOT of sub to get "too much bass".

Let me correct you, sir!

There is no such thing as too much bass!

Only, the poor application of the bass at hand.

When drag racing, applying all of your horsepower will give you a burn out. Properly applied, your tires grip and speed you to the finish line.

You need the horsepower not only from the start, but through the entire race.

More subs give you drastically lower distortion in the range they cover because they aren’t being stressed to their limit.

Don’t know about you, but I’m really into less distortion.

 

[Keith_W]

Beautiful music and you are right that every note should have the same loudness - assuming the pedals were played with equal pressure

But do you know what frequencies that organ goes down to?

For that particular recording, I don't know. But I can tell you that this recording:

... was made with the Flentrop organ installed in Harvard. That organ features a 32' stop, meaning it can go down to 16Hz. Since the pedal spans one octave, the pedals range between 16Hz - 32Hz.