• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Subwoofer Selection Criteria

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,406
Back of the napkin, assuming a crossover frequency of 80Hz, which is about 4.3m long, this should allow for placement such that the acoustic centre is up to 55-ish cm from the boundary (for a return path length of 1/4 wavelength) before significant cancellation begins to occur.

I suspect @DonH56 that your less than +6dB measured gain per boundary is more a result of lossy Gipps-type wall materials, which are not something I encounter as often here in Germany.
 

dc655321

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,597
Likes
2,235
The wavelengths are long but reflections also invert the signal so there is local cancellation.

I feel like we've had this discussion previously (maybe my imagination?), but I don't think acoustic reflections are phase inverted. Perhaps it's the beverages, but I'm struggling to reason this out with physics, so perhaps I'm mistaken?
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,406
I feel like we've had this discussion previously (maybe my imagination?), but I don't think acoustic reflections are phase inverted. Perhaps it's the beverages, but I'm struggling to reason this out with physics, so perhaps I'm mistaken?

This is also my understanding. Phase inversion in air should occur only when reflected through a region of air with lower acoustic impedance, e.g. a port. Reflections from a solid surface should, I think, maintain the same phase.....?
 

dc655321

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,597
Likes
2,235
This is also my understanding. Phase inversion in air should occur only when reflected through a region of air with lower acoustic impedance, e.g. a port. Reflections from a solid surface should, I think, maintain the same phase.....?

That's my (admittedly meager) understanding as well.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,885
Likes
16,681
Location
Monument, CO

dc655321

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,597
Likes
2,235
According to this site y'all are correct: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/reflec.html

I'll have to think on this a bit, and dig up my text, but need to focus on work stuff tonight. Blah.

Yes, of course. Focus on the important things in life.

IIRC, phase behavior upon reflection/transmission in wave mechanics depends on the index of refraction. Not being well versed in acoustics, perhaps that is equivalent to "acoustic impedance"?
 

March Audio

Master Contributor
Audio Company
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
6,378
Likes
9,321
Location
Albany Western Australia
Any measured performance advantage with having all 4 in corners versus centre of each wall?

Or more just practical purposes, due to room layout etc?

In this instance it was a practical decision, I'm not sure of the results in my room with centre wall positioning.

I will put it into REW room sim and have a look.
 

March Audio

Master Contributor
Audio Company
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
6,378
Likes
9,321
Location
Albany Western Australia
REW seemsto think mid wall is a bad option in my room and listening position

1553928806533.png


1553928843117.png
 

March Audio

Master Contributor
Audio Company
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
6,378
Likes
9,321
Location
Albany Western Australia
Well at least I got to the bottom of the sharp dip I suffer at 62Hz. The ceiling is at 2 levels, centre cut out is actually higher at 2.93 m with the outer area at 2.6m (2.7 being the measurement I was using for simulation). Using REW and changing to 2.93m shows the 2L mode coinciding with the 1H mode. Bugger.

1553933893370.png


theatre.jpg


1553934229650.png
 
Last edited:

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,406

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
4,673
Likes
2,848
I remember reading an article where someone (Toole?) suggested 4 subs across the front of the listen room can also be fine?

Is my memory correct or wrong and this is that not advised?
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,406
I remember reading an article where someone (Toole?) suggested 4 subs across the front of the listen room can also be fine?

Is my memory correct or wrong and this is that not advised?

This is configuration #15 in the graph I posted a few posts back. According to harman’s research, not an optimal configuration.

I know it’s common in PA setups, although for different reasons (ie for outdoors/acoustically large rooms). I’m not sure whether there’s a good argument for it in small rooms.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,885
Likes
16,681
Location
Monument, CO
Quick update: I did look up boundary effects in my old text late last night. Fundamentally, in addition to being primarily concerned with EM waves and not pressure waves in my day job thus totally blowing the reflection question, where I was confused was in the difference between sound pressure level (SPL to most of us) and sound power levels. A subtle but critical distinction. I have a couple of texts that go through this rather thoroughly but the equations can be daunting unless you are comfortable solving multidimensional wave equations. I once was, sort of, but not today. I actually have some papers and programs that do that, but balked at trying to post such dribble here. The folk who understand it probably understand it much better than I, and folk who have not seen it before would find it difficult to follow without pages of explanation. I wanted a simpler presentation.

So instead I looked through a few other books in my home office and hit gold in Dr. Toole's Sound Reproduction, first edition (I assume the same info is in the third edition but my copy is two floors away and I'm lazy; the second edition is essentially a repackaged copy of the first). He has nice pictures and an explanation in Chapter 12: Adjacent-Boundary and Loudspeaker-Mounting Effects. Figure 12.1 shows the pressure, intensity, and power radiated in spaces from 4π (sphere) to π/2 (corner of the floor or ceiling). <Aside to @amirm -- is there a way to add the symbol font?>

As you go from no adjacent walls, to one, to two, to three, the pressure level at a given point (radius) goes from 0 dB to 6 dB to 12 dB to 18 dB (+6 dB per boundary). For the same conditions, the power radiated goes from 0 dB to 3 dB to 6 dB to 9 dB (+3 dB per boundary). Note these are absolutes; my assumption for the previous posts was start from 2pi (one wall) so the gain of adding two and three walls (boundaries) was 3 and 6 dB (I am sure there must be a way to mess this up further; I plead lack of attention of excessive tiredness after a 60-hour workweek that is not over yet). This is adjacent-boundary work and does not really matter the frequency.

I don't have time to write more, and have more than proven my lack of expertise in this area (or at least poor memory -- I usually look things up and now you know why!) so instead will direct you to Dr. Toole's book. If you really want the math, there's the Fundamentals of Acoustics book by Kinsler et. al. I referenced before, along with numerous others. But, I will put in my plug for Floyd's third edition. I have not gotten through it completely yet but it is greatly expanded from the first edition and accessible to anyone with high-school math skills (and you can get away without the math for the most part). And since Dr. Toole contributes here you're better off asking him directly instead of going through me.

Meanwhile, I'm watching the snow pile up after I cleared the walk and drive earlier; it was supposed to be essentially done, but I'm going to have another couple of inches to clear. Blah. At least it's pretty.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,633
Likes
240,671
Location
Seattle Area
Aside to @amirm -- is there a way to add the symbol font?
I will look. For now, there is a workaround which I use often. Simply find the font online, copy it in your browser and paste it here. I just did that for your post. :)
 

HammerSandwich

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
1,137
Likes
1,498
Despite Don's latest post, I'll add a couple more reflections on reflections.

When reflection polarity was discussed a few months ago, I argued that room gain (pressure-vessel, not from individual boundaries) could not exist if walls inverted air pressure. Not sure that convinced anybody, but I also can't recall a compelling rebuttal... Floor-bounce cancellation offers another avenue: if the reflection were inverted, you'd measure a peak instead of a dip at the 1/2-wavelength frequency.

As Don clarified, Andreas was on the right track with 6dB for longer wavelengths. Allison's early work here integrated power response and showed the 3dB result. SPL analysis shows 6dB when correlated, with interference combing at shorter wavelengths. This paper includes a nice illustration of the effect, as simulated in Akabak:
monopole_reflection.PNG

Try the diffraction tool in VituixCAD, because you can add a floor and/or wall at different distances & with absorption coefficients.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,885
Likes
16,681
Location
Monument, CO
I thought about bringing up Allison, and Haas, etc. but decided I'd already dug myself a deep enough hole. I'm going to have to look for VituixCAD.

The obvious observation for acoustic reflections is that pressure cannot go to zero at a boundary. EM waves flip polarity (at least, E or M does) at a boundary, but sound waves travel in a different way. Duh. Too many years dealing with transmission lines (the electrical kind) and mW filters. Velocity does go to zero, and is one reason typical sound absorbers work better when spaced off the wall a little bit. They work by converting velocity into heat in the absorber so don't work well right at the wall where velocity is nearly zero.

The good news is that this little excursion reminded me that I have a few papers on membrane diffusers that I really want to read again. I'd like to get rid of some of the absorption in my room but have some nasty nulls to deal with. I've dealt with them pretty well with sub placement and tuning, but it'd be neat to try a membrane tuned to my 30 Hz null. That way I could tame it a bit without having 9' deep diffusers in the room. I have a couple that discuss specially shaped cavities to get diffusion very low in only a few inches of depth. Now to see if I can find them again...
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,414
Location
Seattle Area, USA
Having ported mains or not should not matter if you are rolling off their response well above the port tuning frequency. That is what I recommend, along with real experts like Dr. Toole, but again that comes down to preference and the characteristics of your speakers, room, etc.

HTH - Don

According to Stereophile's measurements, my mains:

"With the port open, the minimum-motion notch in the woofer's output occurs at a low 32Hz, and the port covers a relatively narrow passband, rolling off above 70Hz"

(Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker-measurements#O5cybG6oDuuUH7kG.99)

So, in ported mode, I should roll them off at 64 Hz (1 octave above 32 Hz)?

The speakers can also have the ports plugged, which leads to:

"I also examined the impedance with the port sealed with the supplied foam plug. The result (fig.2) is typical of a sealed enclosure tuned to 53Hz."

But if I follow the 1 octave rule of thumb, plugging the port (F3 53 Hz) would lead to a crossover at 106 Hz, which seems too high.

So given all this, if I high pass the mains, am I better off running them ports open or ports plugged?
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,885
Likes
16,681
Location
Monument, CO
I would set them at the typical 80 Hz and see how they sound.
 
Top Bottom