Subwoofer for apartment...???

[R_Van]

Hello,

This ASR thread motivated my search for suitable sealed subwoofers to work with the Snell Model K speakers I purchased for my son.

"Perfect" subwoofer for small basement room

Hi all, I have a small basement room, designed as work and, most importantly game and movie room. You can find a sketch here or attached to the post: Imgur I only have one place to put a subwoofer: At the right side of the L-shaped couch (the box with the freezer-symbol, don't ask why). As...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Unfortunately, I am currently unable to provide you with the floor plan as the OP of this thread did. I should be able to add that information in a few days. The idea of two smaller subwoofers that was suggested seems useful but I wanted to ask some additional questions because the subwoofers that were suggested in this thread are too costly for me even on the used market...at least the examples I identified.

A subwoofer I learned of some time ago is the 12" sealed sub featuring a Dayton RSS315HF and a 500W amp designed by John 'Zaph' Krutke. It appears in the 'Archives' on his website to this day. I have communicated with people that have built these and despite their personal position against subwoofers they did like John's. John makes a similar point in his evaluation of this design. While I suspect a pair of these would be suitable I am also concerned these could be too much for an apartment.

Second, Parts Express has a couple of DIY kits that may be useful but some questions remain with these as well. The first is the 8" Dayton Audio RSS210HO-4 8" driver (30 Hz) powered by a SPA250DSP amplifier. Additionally, there is the 10" Dayton Audio RSS265HO-4 (24 Hz) and cabinet that requires a suitable plate amplifier.

If we yield to frequency response it has to be the Zaph sub. I do not recall any practical listening experience with a 10" woofer but my audiophile listening days occurred long ago. However, my favorite speakers are the Rogers LS7 and they feature 8" woofers. I can certainly state they have much more bass than the KEF Q55 speakers I have been listening to after storing the LS7 after we adopted a rescue dog with a large aggressive tail!

Rick

 

[kemmler3D]

While I suspect a pair of these would be suitable I am also concerned these could be too much for an apartment.

The truth is, all worthwhile subs are "too much for an apartment" that isn't constructed from thick layers of concrete. As a rule of thumb, if you can hear low bass in the room, your neighbors can too, at least a bit.

That said, I have run pretty stout subs in most of the apartments I've lived in, and I have rarely if ever had a neighbor complain. I would say don't worry about it, just be smart about how you use them.

1) EQ the subs to deal with room modes, this will usually involve lowering the bass, which neighbors appreciate.
2) If the subs are properly integrated and you're not listening super loud, that helps too.
3) Don't run the subs late at night... my rule of thumb is turn them off after dark. If you are running DSP / EQ, you can just have a "subs off" preset with a steep highpass filter around 60-80hz. Or plug them into a separate power strip and simply switch it off as needed.

Other than that, building some subs based on that driver seems like a reasonable idea.

I was looking at doing something similar, but after taking a hard look at the drivers, plate amps, and this sheet by @sweetchaos , I came to the conclusion that buying some secondhand subs would make more sense. I managed to find 2x BIC F12 subs for my office, which are nothing special, but I only paid $250 total, and they do alright with EQ.

So my last piece of advice is don't buy any drivers or amps until you've perused the local secondhand sites.

Oh, and welcome to ASR!

 

[Oddball]

Subs for apartment are a bit of a pickle, but can be managed as noted above. Eliminating peaks is the most important as that really stands out to both you and neighbours. Reducing decay also helps as that boomy bass is also not of use for anyone and just creates noise. With 2 subs, good positioning and running them out of phase can help with both.

Currently in the apartment and 18 mos ago when was setting up my system I wanted to buy 4 subs (see signature) that would work anywhere aka did not want to hassle with selling them and replacing them with something bigger. Some neighbours were initially rioting, but at the end got used to it, and I also found a way to manage them better. I don't run it loud beyond 9 pm, and start rolling off at 30-35hz depending on the soundtrack as 20-25hz at higher SPL starts to shake the reinforced concrete construction of the building. Also running a primitive 2x2 DBA with back subs out of phase helps to reduce decay and thus SPL.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

One suggestion is to isolate a sub or subs as best you can from the floor. Ported subs will send more sound directly to the floor or a wall, sealed subs don't have this issue. You might try spring isolators (I am not a fan, but this is a good reason to use them.) Sub legs--> floor will have an effect, though I am not sure how big that effect might be, and hard floor versus carpet under the sub will make a difference.

Ported subs will roll off the low bass faster than sealed subs, as a rule. I think you can get 8-10" ported subs from klipsch or yamaha, those tend to be about $200 each. Subs at $100 will be ok. $200 will get you more quality.

Sealed subs are more expensive, most inexpensive ones are ported. I have the SVS SB-1000 pro, but that's $600. So you might go with less expensive for now, and deal with ports. Or go more expensive, and have something that will do more when you move into a place where you can play louder. That's kind of your choice. And before the SVS, I was using a $100 sub, and it worked well. It was just too small for my space for movies, and the bass was a bit loose. That $100 sub is now in my office at work, filling in the low end for quiet music play. It works fine for small space and low volume listening.

Two subs should not make a difference to neighbors, given that you will be playing each at half volume. Eliminating peaks with multiple subs should be a net benefit.

Size of driver matters, but smaller subs can go just as low as larger ones at the volumes you might play at. "Long throw" drivers have become a thing compared to days past. So don't rule out 10" or 8" subs. Or even 2 6" (depending on room size, but given your speakers I assume is it not very large of a space.)

Rolling off the bass below 20-30hz or so will help. If you have a flatter target curve that will help compared to one with elevated bass. Movies have a lot more super low bass than most music, and I personally use 2 eq curves for this reason. House shaking for movies, try to keep the house from shaking for music.

Socially, you might ask your neighbors a couple questions. First, is there any time they really need quiet, and are there times when they won't mind a bit of bleed through? Second, if possible, play something and ask them how much they hear. If their bedroom backs to your music room, that will make a difference. So if you know Volume1 is ok, but Volume1+10db should only be used before 9pm, that's a good thing to know for peace in the building.

....

It seems your speakers roll off at 70hz. If you use a sub to get down to 35-40, that will give you a lot more bass in music than you might imagine. Hitting 40 is something $100 subs can definitely do. Avoiding 20-30 will help with bleed through to other apartments. Cross your speakers over at 80, have the sub take over 40-80, roll off below 40 (if you can).... then see about extending lower, which is where the most "neighbor annoying" sound lives.

 

[tw 2022]

all of the above is good advice... i'd try to find a way to incorporate dsp as they said... if it can be done the svs sb1000 pro has built in dsp....there are a few other not so expensive subs that have some dsp capabilities....the main thing is: *volume control*....

 

[Mort]

Just roll off at 30 and you will enjoy 95% of music and movies and eliminate most of the rumble.

 

[Apesbrain]

I put a set of SVS footers on my sub to reduce floor transmission to nearby units. Seems to work.

 

[Keith_W]

Subs for apartment are a bit of a pickle, but can be managed as noted above. Eliminating peaks is the most important as that really stands out to both you and neighbours. Reducing decay also helps as that boomy bass is also not of use for anyone and just creates noise. With 2 subs, good positioning and running them out of phase can help with both.

Not true. All peaks and dips convert to peaks the moment the sound hits the wall, because walls are areas of zero particle velocity and maximum sound pressure. A peak is only a peak at the position it is observed, if you move a little it will become a dip somewhere else.

Rooms act as low-pass filters, and walls/windows/floors, etc act as membrane absorbers. A membrane absorber works by deflecting due to sound pressure, wasting some of that energy as heat, and re-radiating it forwards (back into the room) and backwards (into your neighbour). How much it does this depends on the construction, if it is thick and solid it will not deflect at all so relatively little gets transmitted. But if you live in those horrible drywall shacks we have in Australia (basically glorified tents) there can be a lot of sound transmission.

The best way to avoid disturbing your neighbour is to seal all air leaks between your apartment to common areas like the corridor. Install a rubber flap on the door and some kind of gasket.

As for subs, whether it's 1 sub or 2 subs or big / small subs it does not matter (if we are worried about sound transmission to neighbours). All that matters is how loud you play it.

 

[kemmler3D]

Not true. All peaks and dips convert to peaks the moment the sound hits the wall, because walls are areas of zero particle velocity and maximum sound pressure. A peak is only a peak at the position it is observed, if you move a little it will become a dip somewhere else.

Rooms act as low-pass filters, and walls/windows/floors, etc act as membrane absorbers. A membrane absorber works by deflecting due to sound pressure, wasting some of that energy as heat, and re-radiating it forwards (back into the room) and backwards (into your neighbour). How much it does this depends on the construction, if it is thick and solid it will not deflect at all so relatively little gets transmitted. But if you live in those horrible drywall shacks we have in Australia (basically glorified tents) there can be a lot of sound transmission.

The best way to avoid disturbing your neighbour is to seal all air leaks between your apartment to common areas like the corridor. Install a rubber flap on the door and some kind of gasket.

As for subs, whether it's 1 sub or 2 subs or big / small subs it does not matter (if we are worried about sound transmission to neighbours). All that matters is how loud you play it.

All good points, but in case anyone is confused, I would say don't read this as saying eliminating peaks with EQ won't help the neighbour situation - less gain is less gain.

The point about air gaps is a good one, that's definitely job #1!

 

[Oddball]

Not true. All peaks and dips convert to peaks the moment the sound hits the wall, because walls are areas of zero particle velocity and maximum sound pressure. A peak is only a peak at the position it is observed, if you move a little it will become a dip somewhere else.

Rooms act as low-pass filters, and walls/windows/floors, etc act as membrane absorbers. A membrane absorber works by deflecting due to sound pressure, wasting some of that energy as heat, and re-radiating it forwards (back into the room) and backwards (into your neighbour). How much it does this depends on the construction, if it is thick and solid it will not deflect at all so relatively little gets transmitted. But if you live in those horrible drywall shacks we have in Australia (basically glorified tents) there can be a lot of sound transmission.

The best way to avoid disturbing your neighbour is to seal all air leaks between your apartment to common areas like the corridor. Install a rubber flap on the door and some kind of gasket.

As for subs, whether it's 1 sub or 2 subs or big / small subs it does not matter (if we are worried about sound transmission to neighbours). All that matters is how loud you play it.

Sorry to be very blunt - so just responding to your level of disagreement. Seems like you are nuking the post, aren't you? But let's keep it going as you seem to have a different solutions in mind?

 

[Keith_W]

Sorry to be very blunt - so just responding to your level of disagreement. Seems like you are nuking the post, aren't you? But let's keep it going as you seem to have a different solutions in mind?

Not nuking the post at all, and I am sorry that you are offended.

The solution is very simple: don't play the subs too loud, and do what is possible to reduce sound transmission. Everything else does not matter - size of sub, number of subs, brand of subs, where the subs are placed, EQ or no EQ. It matters to the listener, but not to the neighbour.

 

[Chaconne]

I'm a long-time apartment dweller with a subwoofer. I've never had a hint of a complaint from neighbors. I don't play music crazy loud, nor after 10:00 p.m. But I think the most important thing is that I listen almost exclusively to classical music. So while there is plenty of bass content, it's not the constant rhythmic pounding common to many other genres of music. So go classical, and become the most popular person in the building!

 

[Bruce Morgen]

We've had only one complaint from a (now former) neighbor in the eight years in the second floor walk-up we've occupied for nearly eight years. FWIW, my SVS SB-1000 sits in corner of the room at the right angle of my L-shaped desk space -- IOW, it's nowhere near the floor.

 

[hex168]

This may be too obvious to mention, but if you put the subwoofer(s) very close to you (think coffee table right in front of the listening position or immediately behind the chair or sofa you listen from), you can play them at a lower level and bother your neighbors less. If you do not mind DIY, dipole subs roll off faster with distance than a monopole.