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Subwoofer Comparison

whazzup

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Interesting discussion on group delay below 30hz, thanks for teaching me something new. But is there any 'bad' example of a sub where poor group delays below 30hz has audible effects? Or even, for budget subs, where it's shown that poor group delay timing for, say 30-50hz, have audible effects?
 
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ernestcarl

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Interesting discussion on group delay below 30hz, thanks for teaching me something new. But is there any 'bad' example of a sub where poor group delays below 30hz has audible effects? Or even, for budget subs, where it's shown that poor group delay timing for, say 30-50hz, have audible effects?

I thought I remember seeing one where a a large PA ported sub and a sealed sub were compared. Group delay for the ported was far greater and indeed audible. But perfectly acceptable for the intended use...

Poor mains-sub alignment can also lead to audible bass sound differences:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hase-control-on-a-subwoofer.20889/post-692808
(sub and mains aren't fully phase compliant in the critical xo region)

I've heard audio examples from either Merlijn Van Veen or Nathan Lively (and/or another person) on youtube -- sorry, I just can't remember the exact video links or titles.
 

Trdat

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It very well may be a group delay issue, given that SVS generally show poor group delay performance. As mentioned, in the lowest frequencies, SVS subs are generally 2-3 full cycles behind other great sub brands.

Interesting question. For you, the lack of speed is obviously a negative, but do you think others may see what you're hearing as a positive?

100% agree.
 
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sweetchaos

sweetchaos

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Thanks for the shoutout to my spreadsheet by @hardisj on his latest video:


My link is in the description field below the video, and Erin mentioned my spreadsheet towards the end of the video at around 21min mark. :D
I've added his latest 2 subs to my spreadsheet, so you can compare with others.
 

hardisj

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whazzup

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Hope it's not off-topic, but going through the database, I realised I've a couple questions about CEA testing:

1. In Sound & Vision articles about testing, I read about the sub being 'close miked', and then it's 'tested at 2m'. How can both be done at the same time? 'Close miked' doesn't mean that the mic is inches away from the driver?

2. When a sub fails a certain frequency (say 20hz), does it mean that distortion is too high at even, say 70dB, for a specific sub? Yet another sub will register / pass this frequency but display a lower than 70dB result?
 
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sweetchaos

sweetchaos

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Hope it's not off-topic, but going through the database, I realised I've a couple questions about CEA testing:

1. In Sound & Vision articles about testing, I read about the sub being 'close miked', and then it's 'tested at 2m'. How can both be done at the same time? 'Close miked' doesn't mean that the mic is inches away from the driver?

2. When a sub fails a certain frequency (say 20hz), does it mean that distortion is too high at even, say 70dB, for a specific sub? Yet another sub will register / pass this frequency but display a lower than 70dB result?
Take a look at these 2 videos on how Erin tests.
If that doesn't answer your question, then perhaps someone else can chime in.
 
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sweetchaos

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I think it's incredible that we've had 10,000 views (on this thread) in just one month. o_O
It really speaks to the amount of interest this generated. :D

Looking back at the start, I've launched with:
2021-02-17: 102 manufacturers (unique), 690 models (all, non-unique), 562 models (unique), 274 models with CEA-2010-A data (all, non-unique).

And now:
2021-03-18: 272 manufacturers (unique), 1664 models (all, non-unique), 1506 models (unique), 296 models with CEA-2010-A data (all, non-unique).

At this point, I'd like to get community feedback on what you guys would like to see further improved/added.
 
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sweetchaos

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Improvements...

I scraped 1816 subwoofer models from website AudioReview.com, and will work on incorporating *most* of these into my spreadsheet.
Added list to post #2.
 
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sweetchaos

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Brent Butterworth updated his Wirecutter article yesterday, stating in the "what to look forward to" section:
SVS has announced the 3000 Micro, a compact subwoofer measuring 10.9 by 11.7 by 10.7 inches. It has two eight-inch drivers and an 800-watt amp. Price is $800. We hope to get a sample for evaluation soon.
Awesome!
Perhaps we'll get two CEA-2010-A measurements for the SVS 3000 Micro. :cool:
 
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sweetchaos

sweetchaos

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Improvements:

- Changed from a static currency conversion to an automatic system, which means all currency will be up to date, with no user input from me (which makes my job easier and less prone to mistakes). Credit goes to @steveocarr for this useful conversion.
- Added 2 more currencies (CAD, GBP) to previous 2 (USD, EUR), that this conversion works for.
- Added 'Frequent Sale Price' column, for models that I notice go on sale frequently

If you guys notice any subs that go on sale frequently, please let me know.
 
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warthor

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Improvements:



If you guys notice any subs that go on sale frequently, please let me know.

Monoprice frequently has sales on the 10", 12" and 15" subwoofers (timing unknown).

Also, SVS has four times a year sales on President's day, Memorial day, Labor Day, and Cyber Monday. I believe the steepest discounts occur on Cyber Monday.

RSL frequently seems to be on sale, as well (timing unknown, have seen this twice in a few months now).

Costco always puts sales on the 12-inch Klipsch subwoofer, as well.
 

radio3

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I wonder if the 3000 Micro might possibly be able to keep up with the SB2000 Pro on extension. I suppose it’s somewhat unlikely given its lower price, but what do you guys think. I love that it means no vibrating wood floor and walls.
 
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sweetchaos

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I wonder if the 3000 Micro might possibly be able to keep up with the SB2000 Pro on extension. I suppose it’s somewhat unlikely given its lower price, but what do you guys think. I love that it means no vibrating wood floor and walls.

SVS claims 3000 Micro's Freq. Response: 23-240 Hz ±3 dB (standard mode) (this is quasi-anechoic) (NOTE: in-room, it will be deeper)
SVS claims SB-2000 Pro's Freq. Response: 19-240 Hz ±3 dB (this is quasi-anechoic) (NOTE: in-room, it will be deeper)

Well, JoeNTell measured his 3000 Micro and saw -3db point at ~28hz when he measured it in-room (data from his video).
 
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Sancus

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Well, JoeNTell measured his 3000 Micro and saw -3db point at 22hz in-room (he talked about it in his video at around 13min mark), but not corner loaded (as the measurement was done in the center of the room).

I'm a bit confused by this. I am pretty sure(?) that -3dB point is relative to the flat portion of the response curve, not relative to the average SPL measurement in dbC(!).

Based on the below graph, the 3000 Micro looks to be -3dB around 28hz in that room. The graphs earlier at 13:00 also show a pretty steep rolloff starting around 30hz.

Of course, I'd personally wait for a CEA2010 in any case as without knowing real output capability at 20-25hz the extension is not that relevant. I mean you would want to EQ it flat(or even +3-6dB!) anyways in real-world use.

1616725848442.png
 
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sweetchaos

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I'm a bit confused by this. I am pretty sure(?) that -3dB point is relative to the flat portion of the response curve, not relative to the average SPL measurement in dbC(!).

Based on the below graph, the 3000 Micro looks to be -3dB around 28hz in that room. The graphs earlier at 13:00 also show a pretty steep rolloff starting around 30hz.

Of course, I'd personally wait for a CEA2010 in any case as without knowing real output capability at 20-25hz the extension is not that relevant. I mean you would want to EQ it flat(or even +3-6dB!) anyways in real-world use.

View attachment 120392
You're right, I misunderstood what he was saying. In his room, the -3db point was at approx 28hz. I've updated my previous post.
 

somebodyelse

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- Changed from a static currency conversion to an automatic system, which means all currency will be up to date, with no user input from me (which makes my job easier and less prone to mistakes). Credit goes to @steveocarr for this useful conversion.
Does this allow the possibility of manual entries for subs where the prices vary significantly from what the exchange rate would suggest, or simply aren't available in that currency? As an example it's pointless having Rythmik subs listed in GBP as they aren't available in the UK - you have to purchase from Rythmik in the US, tell them who to use for shipping (not cheap) then pay tax on import. Having n/a would be much more useful.
 
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sweetchaos

sweetchaos

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Does this allow the possibility of manual entries for subs where the prices vary significantly from what the exchange rate would suggest, or simply aren't available in that currency? As an example it's pointless having Rythmik subs listed in GBP as they aren't available in the UK - you have to purchase from Rythmik in the US, tell them who to use for shipping (not cheap) then pay tax on import. Having n/a would be much more useful.

I'm simply converting the original price into another currency. So if I'm purchasing a speaker from the USA, my credit card would charge me in USD, and then convert to CAD before I receive my bill. For me, knowing the converted price makes sense, so I can compare with my local Canadian models.

I'll keep things the way they are, as you're asking to remove a useful feature of this spreadsheet.
If you don't find it useful, just don't look at that column?
 
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