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Subwoofer Comparison

I own a Focal subwoofer with an 11-inch driver (a monitoring model vented) with kef ls 50 wireless 2.
That seems like it's the Focal SUB6 subwoofer. It's a relatively compact unit, designed with sensitivity in mind, so the 30 Hz specification may actually be –6dB rather than –3dB. It's not entirely clear what it is from the Focal specifications.
I am perfectly happy with it, but it is unfortunately starting to show signs of wear, which is why I am considering replacing it.
Have you considered a pair of Focal Sub One Active Dual 8" Subwoofers. These seem to have similar performance to your exissting Focal subwoofer, and a pair should integrate quite well into your room layout.
I am looking for a replacement subwoofer, but I have some concerns about the ability of a "sealed" (closed-box) design to deliver high-quality low-end performance—even with a 13- or 15-inch driver—in a fairly large, open-plan room (the space is at least 60 to 80 square meters).
Have you considered a stereo pair of subwoofers? That would suit your room layout and give you a +6dB boost, thus providing more headroom. Keep in mind that vented subwoofers have poorer transient response, although they will provide more low-frequency output than a sealed subwoofer. However, good vented subwoofers tend to be large.

What about a pair of KEF Kube 12 MIE 12-inch active subwoofers? They are relatively compact, and would likely suit your room's aesthetics.
 
That would suit your room layout and give you a +6dB boost,
3dB extra headroom for incoherent signals, 6dB for coherent signals.
Keep in mind that vented subwoofers have poorer transient response
This is not true. I have never seen a GD measurement of a vented subwoofer which would present an audible issue.
 
It's not entirely clear how the strong EQ applied to the SVS subwoofer is leading to the type of group delay bahviour that was shown. It is entirely possible to take a sealed subwoofer low-frequency transfer function with a shallow low-Qtc roll-off and heavily equalize it to produce a more Butterworth filter-like 2nd-order response with a –3 dB cut-off at 20 Hz. Of course, the equalized response has the same group delay as what a non-equalized response with the same transfer function would have.

Below is a simulation produced using VituixCAD of just such a heavily-equalized sealed subwoofer. The magenta dotted curve is the "natural" response of a Qtc = 0.50 sealed subwoofer with an Fc = 30 Hz. Its output at 20 Hz is –10.5 dB relative to the passband. The light blue dash-dot curve is the response of a sealed subwoofer with Qtc = 0.7071 and an Fc = 20 Hz, whose response at 20 Hz is –3 dB relative to the passband. The solid black line is the "heavily equalized" response of the original Qtc = 0.50 sealed system. It is evident that the magnitude reponse and group delay response of this equalized system is a very close match with the Qtc = 0.7071 system. Hence, this clearly demonstrates that heavy equalisation does not necessarily result in significantly different group delay characteristics. The heavily equalized subwoofer will also have the same time domain transient response characteristics, assuming of course that it is operating within the driver's linear displacement zone (i.e., not being overdriven).

View attachment 559619

Now, we can easily introduce the effect of a second-order high-pass filter to simulate those that might be used to "protect" this heavily equalized system. Below is the VituixCAD simulation when an 8-Hz 2nd-order Butterworth high-pass filter is added. Clearly, the group delay characteristics start being significantly affected below about 20 Hz.

View attachment 559622

Changing to an 8-Hz 4th-order Butterworth high-pass filter produces even more group delay. Of course, this is entirely as a expected. However, the group delay at 15 Hz is only 31 ms, which is a lot lower than the 120 ms in the group delay curve that was provided in an post #1354. Maybe that is indicative of something else?

View attachment 559623

It is also interesting to see the effect on group delay of an 80 Hz 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley low-pass filter (LPF). Below is the VituixCAD simulation of that particular scenario. Notice how the LPF seems to add an almost constant boost of 6–7 ms to the group delay over most of the operating frequency band of the subwoofer.

View attachment 559626
Take a look at the group delay and step responses for the SVS subs in this test. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/ The GD results for the SB3000 are similar to what I measured and it is clear that SVS is trading reduced time domain performance for advertised specs./ reduced enclosure size as are many other subs.
 
3dB extra headroom for incoherent signals, 6dB for coherent signals.
Understood, but I suppose many instances of recorded signals below 80 Hz in music and movies are essentially mono sources, and if they aren't, they differ only in amplitude and not in phase. Hence the 6dB coherent signal case would seem to apply to the expected summation.

@Curvature I would be very interested to see a low-frequency stereo waveform from music and/or a movie soundtrack that demonstrates incoherence below, let us say, 50 Hz. Can you provide some examples?

This is not true. I have never seen a GD measurement of a vented subwoofer which would present an audible issue.
What is not true? The transient response of a 4th-order high-pass system (e.g., a vented loudspeaker) is demonstrably worse, waveform wise, than a 2nd-order high-pass system (e.g., a sealed loudspeaker). Below are some step responses (which are a somewhat artificial test signal when it comes to low-frequency response of loudspeakers) of different high-pass systems. This clearly demonstrates that a 4th-order system has more ringing than does a 2nd-order system.

1789792476731.png

The same basic result is shown when a single pulse is used as the test stimulus for the high-pass system. Of course, whether or not such differences are going to be audible is unclear, at least to me. What has been demonstrated is that the duration of the ringing is longer (less damped) for the 4th-order high-pass filter.

This all serves to show that, in relation to this particular metric, the transient response of a sealed loudspeaker is better than that of a vented loudspeaker with the same cut-off frequency.

Sealed loudspeaker with F3 = 50 Hz

1789792590570.png


Ported loudspeaker with F3 = 50 Hz

1789792644426.png
 
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Take a look at the group delay and step responses for the SVS subs in this test. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/
I did, and the group delay is way more than would normally be expected from a heavily EQed sealed subwoofer. To reiterate here, my point was simply to note that it was unclear to me how the "strong EQ applied to the SVS subwoofer" is leading to the type of group delay behaviour that was shown. As I demonstrated, it is (theoretically) possible to take a sealed subwoofer low-frequency transfer function with a shallow low-Qtc roll-off and heavily equalize it to produce a more Butterworth filter-like 2nd-order response with a –3 dB cut-off at 20 Hz. That heavily equalized response has the same group delay as what a non-equalized response with the same transfer function would have.
The GD results for the SB3000 are similar to what I measured and it is clear that SVS is trading reduced time domain performance for advertised specs./ reduced enclosure size as are many other subs.
The time-domain step response of the SB3000/SB2000 are eye-opening in that their transient response is significantly worse than what might be expected from a simple assessment based on their entirely reasonable looking magnitude response functions.

It would seem that something else is at work here, above and beyond the simple application of some "heavy EQ", which should not have any deleterious effects on the transient response if the subwoofer is working in its "linear" operating range. It seems that some sealed subwoofers don't have as linear an operating range as might be expected, judging by the very unnaturally-long measured step response functions!
 
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What is not true? The transient response of a 4th-order high-pass system (e.g., a vented loudspeaker) is demonstrably worse, waveform wise, than a 2nd-order high-pass system (e.g., a sealed loudspeaker). Below are some step responses (which are a somewhat artificial test signal when it comes to low-frequency response of loudspeakers) of different high-pass systems. This clearly demonstrates that a 4th-order system has more ringing than does a 2nd-order system.
Step responses are not psychoacoustically interpretable. The most relevant measurement would be burst decay or group delay, and, like I wrote earlier, I haven't seen evidence of vented speakers or subs meaningfully breaching LF GD thresholds (which are not well-established and are difficult to hear in any case, particularly in-rom).

https://data-bass.com/ by Josh Ricci contains examples of GD measurements for subs. Erin also presents GD measurements of most speakers: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/

Edit: A similar discussion is happening here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eaked-pricing-info.72465/page-25#post-2684891
 
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@Curvature I would be very interested to see a low-frequency waveform from music and/or a movie soundtrack that demonstrates incoherence below, let us say, 50 Hz. Can you provide some examples?
I have collections of field recordings by Chris Watson. Nonimpulsive, noisy, diffuse signals due to wind, avalanches, other natural sounds. These are probably not representative of most commercial material, like you say. I expect there will always be some circumstance where noise would be a strong component, probably not very prominent, though.

Realistically, I think the second sub would be more useful for smoothing in-room FR rather than additional SPL, although the SPL would be nice.
 
@Curvature I would be very interested to see a low-frequency stereo waveform from music and/or a movie soundtrack that demonstrates incoherence below, let us say, 50 Hz. Can you provide some examples?
Here's couple of threads with measurements about stereo bass in music.
Not very uncommon, despite the myths, going way back.

Significant differences both in amplitude and phase:



Example from the '50's:

1789796550084.png1789796569360.png
 
That seems like it's the Focal SUB6 subwoofer. It's a relatively compact unit, designed with sensitivity in mind, so the 30 Hz specification may actually be –6dB rather than –3dB. It's not entirely clear what it is from the Focal specifications.

Have you considered a pair of Focal Sub One Active Dual 8" Subwoofers. These seem to have similar performance to your exissting Focal subwoofer, and a pair should integrate quite well into your room layout.

Have you considered a stereo pair of subwoofers? That would suit your room layout and give you a +6dB boost, thus providing more headroom. Keep in mind that vented subwoofers have poorer transient response, although they will provide more low-frequency output than a sealed subwoofer. However, good vented subwoofers tend to be large.

What about a pair of KEF Kube 12 MIE 12-inch active subwoofers? They are relatively compact, and would likely suit your room's aesthetics.
Thank you very much for your reply.

My current subwoofer has an 11-inch driver and is used in a large room.

I don't think the Focal model with its 8-inch driver would be sufficient to fill the room with sound at a decent volume level. Furthermore, I am looking for a subwoofer that looks good, since it will be placed in a living area.

Likewise, the kef 12 ime subwoofer seem a bit underwhelming to me.

I am waiting for the white paper on the Berlin subwoofer.

on paper, it seems to tick all the boxes, and I could fit two of them into my budget.

Or maybe 2 Arendal 1961 1s ( but under the 50hz the spl seems low... Based on Erin's Corner's tests)

Another option would be the Arendal 1961 1V subwoofer.
esthetically, it is "decent," though perhaps too bulky with 54 cm tall.
however, its SPL output below 50 Hz is far superior to the sealed version 1s, and it is well-suited for a large room.

On the downside, I would only be able to install one of them.

So, the question is:
is it better to have two small sealed units ( +3 at 6db spl) or a single ported one with more spl (6db superior ) under 50hz? For music (80%) and home cinema for the same budget?
 
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Thank you very much for your reply.

My current subwoofer has an 11-inch driver and is used in a large room.

I don't think the Focal model with its 8-inch driver would be sufficient to fill the room with sound at a decent volume level. Furthermore, I am looking for a subwoofer that looks good, since it will be placed in a living area.

Likewise, the kef 12 ime subwoofer seem a bit underwhelming to me.

I am waiting for the white paper on the Berlin subwoofer.

on paper, it seems to tick all the boxes, and I could fit two of them into my budget.

Or maybe 2 Arendal 1961 1s ( but under the 50hz the spl seems low... Based on Erin's Corner's tests)

Another option would be the Arendal 1961 1V subwoofer.
esthetically, it is "decent," though perhaps too bulky with 54 cm tall.
however, its SPL output below 50 Hz is far superior to the sealed version 1s, and it is well-suited for a large room.

On the downside, I would only be able to install one of them.

So, the question is:
is it better to have two small sealed units ( +3 at 6db spl) or a single ported one with more spl (6db superior ) under 50hz? For music (80%) and home cinema for the same budget?
I'd vote for 2 smaller subwoofers (ideally 3-4) instead of one larger - if you would like to listen in more than one position.

"Low-Frequency Optimization Using
Multiple Subwoofers"
(TODD WELTI AND ALLAN DEVANTIER)

 
Technical objective information based on test measurements will always be of importance to your customers. It definitely won't be of "very limited use"!

And it would be very helpful if those limits were provided as information to consumers.

Intelligent limiters don't seem to be that unique these days. After all, as far as I can tell, they are available in every commercial DAW. Of course, tuning the limiter for low-frequency signal content is part of delivering a good user experience, so no doubt some engineering work would have gone into that side of things. In any case, intelligent limiters are far from unique, as they are available in subwoofers like the KEF KC92 and KC62, the SVS SVS 3000 Micro R|Evolution, and B&W DB4S / DB Series, and probably a few others too. Then there are the sound reinforcement models such as the QSC KS118, RCF SUB 705-AS MK3 / 905-AS MK3, Yamaha DXS18XLF / DXS18mk3, and JBL LSR310S to name but a few.
You are completely right, but let me give a little context what I meant with that. Most of our customers for Argon Audio are first time Hifi customers. We recently did a survey and found that design, value for money and functionality (in that order) are the most important factors for those customers. Even a frequency graph would not be understood by the big majority of Argon Audios customer base - which is okay, since we are not aiming most of the products at a enthusiast crowd - unlike Radiant Acoustics, where we provide technical background for all products upon release. Anecdotally, after 10 years in retail, I could count the time of people asking for measurements on products on one hand. So while published measurements, deep dives and white papers are a must on here, in the typical retail space they not really relevant - and therefore not part of the process with Argon Audio - yet!

I am personally a big fan of well measuring, objective audio, that's why I am on this forum privately - and now also to represent the company here. The Berlin subwoofers are the first product of a new generation of products, where we are not only targeting the newcomers, but want to be competitive in the "middle-class" Hifi. we are very happy that they are being discussed on enthusiast forums like ASR and thus see that we should produce measurements not only for Berlin but also other products that might be technically interesting enough to be discussed here.

Lastly, the smart limiter used is less a traditional limiter, but more a "live software modeling" of the entire system, maybe comparable to some sensor controlled subwoofer systems. Anyway, I am happy to post the white paper when it is done so we can talk about facts, so it feels less like marketing babble from my side haha
 
You are completely right, but let me give a little context what I meant with that. Most of our customers for Argon Audio are first time Hifi customers. We recently did a survey and found that design, value for money and functionality (in that order) are the most important factors for those customers. Even a frequency graph would not be understood by the big majority of Argon Audios customer base - which is okay, since we are not aiming most of the products at a enthusiast crowd - unlike Radiant Acoustics, where we provide technical background for all products upon release. Anecdotally, after 10 years in retail, I could count the time of people asking for measurements on products on one hand. So while published measurements, deep dives and white papers are a must on here, in the typical retail space they not really relevant - and therefore not part of the process with Argon Audio - yet!

I am personally a big fan of well measuring, objective audio, that's why I am on this forum privately - and now also to represent the company here. The Berlin subwoofers are the first product of a new generation of products, where we are not only targeting the newcomers, but want to be competitive in the "middle-class" Hifi. we are very happy that they are being discussed on enthusiast forums like ASR and thus see that we should produce measurements not only for Berlin but also other products that might be technically interesting enough to be discussed here.

Lastly, the smart limiter used is less a traditional limiter, but more a "live software modeling" of the entire system, maybe comparable to some sensor controlled subwoofer systems. Anyway, I am happy to post the white paper when it is done so we can talk about facts, so it feels less like marketing babble from my side haha
For my part, I am eagerly awaiting the publication of your measurements and white paper, as your Berlin subwoofer—specifically a dual-unit setup—could theoretically meet my needs. However, without published curves or objective data—particularly regarding SPL and the like—I certainly wouldn't consider investing; instead, I would turn to other established brands that do publish their measurements.
 
It would seem that something else is at work here, above and beyond the simple application of some "heavy EQ", which should not have any deleterious effects on the transient response if the subwoofer is working in its "linear" operating range. It seems that some sealed subwoofers don't have as linear an operating range as might be expected, judging by the very unnaturally-long measured step response functions!
I believe some of this is the extremely small enclosure volume. I am not a simulation expert but it looks like you are using a 0.707 QTC sealed enclosure for your baseline which the SVS subs are not even close to. The interaction with the air inside these small sealed enclosure, both compression and shearing, can be a large source of non-linearities.

These small enclosure aggressively DSP'd subs are designed primarily to fill in below small satellite mains speakers with moderate SPL and for that role they can work quite well and the group delay is likely to be a very minor issue. However, when trying to integrate them with multiple different subs and mains the group delay can really complicate integration.

Controversially / subjectively in my experience if you are trying to chase high SPL "slam" from a kick drum or similar I have had better luck with subs that show better time domain behavior for which group delay is a good indicator / proxy.
 
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I believe some of this is the extremely small enclosure volume.
There are appears to be some sort of DSP-related group delay going on that has effects that are beyond simple equalization. Although the enclosures are relatively small, the driver–enclosure combination can still be designed to work reasonably well, but of course sensitivity will be sacrificed. That's all covered by Thiele, Small, Keele, Bullock, amongst others, in the many papers on closed box and vented box systems.
I am not a simulation expert but it looks like you are using a 0.707 QTC sealed enclosure for your baseline which the SVS subs are not even close to.
I think that there may be some misunderstanding of what was being portrayed. In the example that was presented, the choice of Qtc = 0.7071 as the target 2nd-order high-pass response was purely illustrative. It was chosen to show that if the electrodynamic system is minimum phase then applying large amounts of EQ can change the system response to match a different one: in magnitude, phase, and group delay response. This type of behaviour underpins the use of the Linkwitz Transform with closed boxes. The Qtc = 0.7071 system was set as the target, as its response is well known and well understood. This example showed that, even when high levels of EQ are applied, the group delay simply matches that of whatever target is chosen. High levels of EQ do not necessarily lead to higher levels of group delay. The point of the exercise was merely to demonstrate that behaviour with a concrete example.

The example can be modified to suit the target response as found on an SVS sealed subwoofer. The difficulty of that approach is that we don't have data readily at hand on what the theoretical characteristics are. I suppose VituixCAD or XSim could be used to do an inverse transformation to compute the minimum-phase phase response. However, that is an additional step that somewhat further complicates matters.

The original analysis showed that high-levels of EQ do not necessarily lead to excess levels of group delay beyond that displayed by the natural response of the equivalent non-equalised system. If additional amounts of group delay are present, then it would be interesting to know and understand their cause. Presently, apart from such general labels as "the signal processing chain", I am left in the dark.
The interaction with the air inside these small sealed enclosure, both compression and shearing, can be a large source of non-linearities.
There is certainly going to be quite a bit of compression of the air taking place. Have you studied the stiffness versus compression curve of just such an enclosure? You may be surprised that the air can be relatively linear in its response, especially when compared with the intrinsic nonlinearities of the woofer's suspension. Are you able to elaborate a little on how "shearing" is a large source of non-linearities? I am curious about the mechanisms involved.
These small enclosure aggressively DSP'd subs are designed primarily to fill in below small satellite mains speakers with moderate SPL and for that role they can work quite well and the group delay is likely to be a very minor issue.
Looking at the less than stellar step responses of some of these subwoofers, they may not be as good for the task at hand than would normally be expected. But, being adequate at producing moderately high SPLs is probably sufficient for the intended use case. Of course, some listeners will prefer a better overall design, and that's where the larger-volumed DIY sealed subwoofers come into play on a regular basis.
However, when trying to integrate them with multiple different subs and mains the group delay can really complicate integration.
What you have found is definitely a problem area that one needs to be aware of. You're own measurements, and those of others, have demonstrated that some subwoofers have unusually high levels of group delay. And, as you have found, mismatches between subwoofer group delays can play havoc with the summed response, which is a point that needs to be kept in mind when blending different subwoofers together in a mult-subwoofer installation.
Controversially / subjectively in my experience if you are trying to chase high SPL "slam" from a kick drum or similar I have had better luck with subs that show better time domain behavior for which group delay is a good indicator / proxy.
The transient responses of some of these subwoofers are hardly clean in the textbook sense that their magnitude response might lead us to believe that they would be capable of. There is an awful lot of ringing going on, which would hardly be conducive to accurately reproducing what the original sound pressure waveform looked like. Providing details of a subwoofer's transient response, above and beyond the simple magnitude response as a function of frequency, is something that most manufacturers seem to avoid.

Thanks to some detailed measurements provided by independent testers, we are aware of the potential deficiencies. If one is able to measure the group delay of a subwoofer system, then it is also entirely possible to directly look at things such as the step response and the pulse response by taking some appropriate measurements. Why, even some low-frequency 25-Hz square waves would be fun to see!
 
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