Subwoofer Comparison

[levimax]

Very cool,

What are the room dimensions these beasts are located in?

Odd shapped room width varies from 11 to 14 ft. Length is 23 ft ceiling varies from 8 to 9 ft. I have speakers in one end with LP 6.5 ft away so mid field which seems to help a lot. I

 

[komhst]

Looks like Brent Butterworth updated his spreadsheet in February:

CTA-2010 results

docs.google.com

Edifier T5s is at least one new addition. Performance (scaled to 2m) seems quite nice for the footprint & cost (only 110€ on amazon.de). Would make for a cheap compact MSO desk setup for example
View attachment 529776View attachment 529777

Does T5s have a high pass filter for RCA outputs?
Manual says: "This adjustment determines the crossover point inputting to the subwoofer. Bass signal below the crossover point will be “handed over” to the subwoofer for playing."
It doesn't clarify if RCA outputs full frequency signal or only the frequencies above the crossover point...

 

[somebodyelse]

Does T5s have a high pass filter for RCA outputs?
Manual says: "This adjustment determines the crossover point inputting to the subwoofer. Bass signal below the crossover point will be “handed over” to the subwoofer for playing."
It doesn't clarify if RCA outputs full frequency signal or only the frequencies above the crossover point...

https://www.igorslab.de/en/edifier-...esign-for-flat-bass-and-why-its-easy-to-hide/

There is no high-pass filtering for the satellites in the subwoofer; the looped-through signal remains unchanged, deliberately leaving the responsibility for separation to the user or the connected speakers.

The table on that page says the info is from the manual, but the later teardown page shows the ADC and integrated DSP/amp so there's nothing to apply a matching high pass to the RCA outs. Perhaps it's a bit much to expect at this price point?

 

[tjaa]

Perhaps it's a bit much to expect at this price point?

I would assume the omission is due to their cheap newer app controlled DSP speakers (MR3, MR5) already having adjustable high pass filters

 

[Jarrett]

Ok, there is a lot of data here which I appreciate, but where are the recommendations or scoring? E.g. Spinorama is ranked by tone score. All the columns under hz mean output level at various tones? How much dropoff and variation is acceptable? Sorry if I have to ask, but there is a lot of good data on ASR presented without any conclusions.

 

[kyuu]

Ok, there is a lot of data here which I appreciate, but where are the recommendations or scoring? E.g. Spinorama is ranked by tone score. All the columns under hz mean output level at various tones? How much dropoff and variation is acceptable? Sorry if I have to ask, but there is a lot of good data on ASR presented without any conclusions.

Not sure what you're expecting? Someone collecting this data on their spare time is also expected to interpret it for you? If you want some assistance in making a purchasing decision there are plenty of forum-goers willing to help with that. You'll need to provide some basic information about your circumstances, though: room, budget, aesthetic/space considerations, how many subs you're looking at, the rest of your system, any DSP/room correction you have available, etc.

 

[multichannel_guy]

Anyone have some measurements for the Dayton CS1200?

 

[TurtlePaul]

Anyone have some measurements for the Dayton CS1200?

Not a full test CEA-2010 test but a lot of interesting info.

 

[webzeb]

Would be interested in BK Electronics sealed subwoofers (XLS200/300, XXLS400...) measurement.

Living in an apartment, max SPL and tons of extension are irrelevant.
The other way around, minimum group delay and minimum distorsion at medium SPL are.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

Would be interested in BK Electronics sealed subwoofers (XLS200/300, XXLS400...) measurement.

Living in an apartment, max SPL and tons of extension are irrelevant.
The other way around, minimum group delay and minimum distorsion at medium SPL are.

I’m the same as I live in the UK.

I may take a risk and buy a bk subwoofer and see what the measurements are like in my room.

I’ve gone the more complicated route, I’ve got some NVX car subwoofers on their way to me from the US.

 

[jspinks321]

there aint no woofers safe but come on i'm a strat dude sometimes metal world isn't all that sometimes..i get get in a blues or country mood i do like the strat and tele. sometimes want a shittier speaker and light mags for the break up but its different for guitar and keys..a lot of guitar its how the basket/voice coil is built...Its like real celestions still they were built only a certain way kinda like two piece voice coil/baffle most of everything else is like a pressed in one piece....

we still have same thoughts the engineers though about real hard 40 years ago and still have same conclusion..I don't like how they wanted to do away with celestions though i still like them and especially distortion.

 

[witwald]

Would be interested in BK Electronics sealed subwoofers (XLS200/300, XXLS400...) measurement.

I don't have any measurements, but I have created a simulation of the Peerless XXLS-P835017 12-inch woofer in a 53.3 litre sealed enclosure. The volume of enclosure is very close the 50 litres as stated for the XXLS400 subwoofer on the BK Electronics website. The review of the XXLS400 mentioned that it uses a Linkwitz Transform filter to extend the low-frequency response. The model includes that as well, although a relatively low setting is used that provides no more than 5 dB of boost below 20 Hz. With a nominal input power setting of 32 W re 4 ohms, the sealed subwoofer is producing a peak SPL of around 102 dB at 45 Hz. The low-frequency −3 dB cut-off is F3 = 26.3 Hz, and that's with a 70 Hz 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley low-pass filter producing a −6 dB acoustic cut-off at 80 Hz or so. Below is the simulation in VituixCAD. Being a sealed subwoofer, a nearfield measurement could relatively easily be used to accurately determine the low-frequency response of the XXLS400.

 

[webzeb]

I’m the same as I live in the UK.

I may take a risk and buy a bk subwoofer and see what the measurements are like in my room.

I’ve gone the more complicated route, I’ve got some NVX car subwoofers on their way to me from the US.

Actually, I ordered a BK Electronics XXLS400-FF Walnut for my living room.

Living in a 93's apartement (building is all reinforced concret, very good at conducting bass and infra), I may apply a high pass.
But I also wanted short group delay/good damping.
Hopefully it will work for me

I don't have any measurements, but I have created a simulation of the Peerless XXLS-P835017 12-inch woofer in a 50 litre sealed enclosure. The volume of enclosure is the same as stated for the XXLS400 subwoofer on the BK Electronics website. The review of the XXLS400 mentioned that it uses a Linkwitz Transform filter to extend the low-frequency response. The model includes that as well, although a relatively low setting is used that provides no more than 5 dB of boost below 20 Hz. With a nominal input power setting of 32 W re 4 ohms, the sealed subwoofer is producing a peak SPL of around 102 dB at 45 Hz. The low-frequency −3 dB cut-off is F3 = 26.3 Hz, and that's with a 70 Hz 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley low-pass filter producing a −6 dB acoustic cut-off at 80 Hz or so. Below is the simulation in VituixCAD. Being a sealed subwoofer, a nearfield measurement could relatively easily be used to accurately determine the low-frequency response of the XXLS400.

View attachment 551216

Very, very nice, thanks!

 

[levimax]

I don't have any measurements, but I have created a simulation of the Peerless XXLS-P835017 12-inch woofer in a 50 litre sealed enclosure. The volume of enclosure is the same as stated for the XXLS400 subwoofer on the BK Electronics website. The review of the XXLS400 mentioned that it uses a Linkwitz Transform filter to extend the low-frequency response. The model includes that as well, although a relatively low setting is used that provides no more than 5 dB of boost below 20 Hz. With a nominal input power setting of 32 W re 4 ohms, the sealed subwoofer is producing a peak SPL of around 102 dB at 45 Hz. The low-frequency −3 dB cut-off is F3 = 26.3 Hz, and that's with a 70 Hz 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley low-pass filter producing a −6 dB acoustic cut-off at 80 Hz or so. Below is the simulation in VituixCAD. Being a sealed subwoofer, a nearfield measurement could relatively easily be used to accurately determine the low-frequency response of the XXLS400.

View attachment 551216

Very nice work. @webzeb r was asking and I am curious about group delay, is that available from you simulation?

 

[witwald]

Very nice work. @webzeb r was asking and I am curious about group delay, is that available from you simulation?

Although the group delay can be obtained from the simulation, albeit indirectly, one doesn't really need to see it.

When applying the Linkwitz Ttransform filter, we are dealing with minimum-phase equalisation. Therefore, in terms of group delay, the behaviour of the subwoofer is a very well known quantity, as it corresponds to that of a 2nd-order Butterworth high-pass filter response function (Qtc = 0.71 was chosen as the target EQed response shape). Thus, there really is no need to check the group delay, as it is going to be better than that of a 3rd-order Butterworth high-pass function, which itself is better than that of a 4th-order (vented) Butterworth high-pass function, etc.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, for a second-order high-pass filter (e.g., a closed-box loudspeaker system), when the F3 is reduced by one octave, then the group delay near the cut-off frequency is doubled. The two are inextricably linked.

Hence, there's no need to look at group delay specifically, as it's just a by product of whatever the cut-off frequency is. Just keep in mind that the sealed

It is also worth noting that, for two closed box systems with cut-off frequencies F3a and F3b, where F3a < F3b, the system with F3a will have lower group delay over much of its operating range than does the system with the higher F3, F3b. This illustrates that, to some extent, having a higher peak group delay actually benefits the system's group delay response above the frequency where the peak occurs, plus we get the benefit of the additional bass output of course, which is going to be the very audible part of the overall system response.

To get the group delay, we need to specify what system we are considering. Is it the high-pass response of the sealed subwoofer, without the effect of the low-pass filter in the circuit? That's what most programs show. If so, then when the low-pass filter is removed, the F3 of the system is rises to F3 = 33.2 Hz. Below is the corresponding group delay plot of just such a system. This is the group delay curve of a standard 2nd-order Butterworth high-pass filter with F3 = 33.2 Hz, which corresponds to a sealed subwoofer with Qtc = 0.71.

Noting that this subwoofer will be used to supplement an existing speaker system, it's worth looking at the group delay at low frequencies that occurs when the subwoofer is integrated with the main speakers. This shows that the group delay around 30 Hz is 15 ms, whereas the "perfect" subwoofer had a group delay of about 7 ms at 30 Hz. Apologies for all the other unwanted curves, but VituixCAD doesn't allow them to be turned off even though they are quite irrelevant.

If we chose to use 2nd-order filters for the purpose of integrating the subwoofer with the main speakers, we would get the following results. This shows lower levels of group delay across the board. For example, compare the differences in group delay at 50 Hz for the two simulations. Funnily enough, the present 2nd-order filter setup has less group delay, but it also has 2 dB less output at 30 Hz. That is, its cut-off frequency has increased, reducing the group delay.

And below is the simulation of a vented subwoofer instead of the sealed subwoofer. A bit of tweaking of the low-pass filter setting and gain has been required to get a reasonably flat integrated response. Note how the group delay has increased, but not by as much as might originally have been expected. Of course, as demonstrated before, some of that is simply due to the fact that the low-frequency F3 of this vented system is slightly higher than the F3 of the first sealed system that was analysed in this manner.

 

[levimax]

Although the group delay can be obtained from the simulation, albeit indirectly, one doesn't really need to see it.

When applying the Linkwitz Ttransform filter, we are dealing with minimum-phase equalisation. Therefore, in terms of group delay, the behaviour of the subwoofer is a very well known quantity, as it corresponds to that of a 2nd-order Butterworth high-pass filter response function (Qtc = 0.71 was chosen as the target EQed response shape). Thus, there really is no need to check the group delay, as it is going to be better than that of a 3rd-order Butterworth high-pass function, which itself is better than that of a 4th-order (vented) Butterworth high-pass function, etc.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, for a second-order high-pass filter (e.g., a closed-box loudspeaker system), when the F3 is reduced by one octave, then the group delay near the cut-off frequency is doubled. The two are inextricably linked.

Hence, there's no need to look at group delay specifically, as it's just a by product of whatever the cut-off frequency is. Just keep in mind that the sealed

It is also worth noting that, for two closed box systems with cut-off frequencies F3a and F3b, where F3a < F3b, the system with F3a will have lower group delay over much of its operating range than does the system with the higher F3, F3b. This illustrates that, to some extent, having a higher peak group delay actually benefits the system's group delay response above the frequency where the peak occurs, plus we get the benefit of the additional bass output of course, which is going to be the very audible part of the overall system response.

To get the group delay, we need to specify what system we are considering. Is it the high-pass response of the sealed subwoofer, without the effect of the low-pass filter in the circuit? That's what most programs show. If so, then when the low-pass filter is removed, the F3 of the system is rises to F3 = 33.2 Hz. Below is the corresponding group delay plot of just such a system. This is the group delay curve of a standard 2nd-order Butterworth high-pass filter with F3 = 33.2 Hz, which corresponds to a sealed subwoofer with Qtc = 0.71.

View attachment 551276

Noting that this subwoofer will be used to supplement an existing speaker system, it's worth looking at the group delay at low frequencies that occurs when the subwoofer is integrated with the main speakers. This shows that the group delay around 30 Hz is 15 ms, whereas the "perfect" subwoofer had a group delay of about 7 ms at 30 Hz. Apologies for all the other unwanted curves, but VituixCAD doesn't allow them to be turned off even though they are quite irrelevant.

View attachment 551277

If we chose to use 2nd-order filters for the purpose of integrating the subwoofer with the main speakers, we would get the following results. This shows lower levels of group delay across the board. For example, compare the differences in group delay at 50 Hz for the two simulations. Funnily enough, the present 2nd-order filter setup has less group delay, but it also has 2 dB less output at 30 Hz. That is, its cut-off frequency has increased, reducing the group delay.

View attachment 551278

And below is the simulation of a vented subwoofer instead of the sealed subwoofer. A bit of tweaking of the low-pass filter setting and gain has been required to get a reasonably flat integrated response. Note how the group delay has increased, but not by as much as might originally have been expected. Of course, as demonstrated before, some of that is simply due to the fact that the low-frequency F3 of this vented system is slightly higher than the F3 of the first sealed system that was analysed in this manner.

View attachment 551281

Thank you. I noticed for the vented enclosure you did not include a "protective hi-pass" filter which is usually required for vented enclosures especially if boosting the low bass. I have found these protective high pass filters can add considerable group delay and ringing. I would be curious to see this effect in the simulation and your comments if you wanted. If not no worries as you have already been very generous with your time and knowledge sharing.

 

[witwald]

I noticed for the vented enclosure you did not include a "protective hi-pass" filter which is usually required for vented enclosures especially if boosting the low bass. I have found these protective high pass filters can add considerable group delay and ringing.

They certainly can do that. The vented box response goes from being a 4th-order high-pass transfer function to a 6th-order high-pass transfer function. The latter will definitely have more ringing associated with it. Adding an extra two orders of roll-off near the cut-off frequency will do that.

I would be curious to see this effect in the simulation and your comments if you wanted.

Happy to run another simulation. The model was still open and it's easy enough to adjust the parameters. Below are the results. Keep in mind that there have also been changes to the low-pass filter on the subwoofer and the "filtered" response of the main speaker in order to get a reasonably good quality of integration. Still, this simulation does highlight exactly what you referred to, in that there is about an extra 10 ms of group delay at 30 Hz or so.

 

[witwald]

...protective high pass filters can add considerable group delay and ringing. I would be curious to see this effect in the simulation and your comments if you wanted.

Below is a simulation where the main effects on group delay are made as clear as possible. The model consisted of a "perfect" subwoofer with a low-frequency cut-off point of F3 = 25 Hz.

The subwoofer's low-frequency roll-off rate was controlled by choosing it to be represented by 2nd-order (sealed), 4th-order (vented), and 6th-order (filter assisted vented) high-pass transfer functions. In each case, the low-pass filter on the subwoofer was a 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley filter set to 80 Hz. The response of the main speaker was assumed to be modelled by a complementary 80 Hz 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley high-pass filter response function.

The results below show the variation in group delay that is caused by changing the roll-off rate of the subwoofer and nothing else.

Below is the VituixCAD model when the 2nd-order subwoofer high-pass transfer function was used, together with the various response functions and their sum. As can be seen, very good "integration" has been achieved.

Below is the VituixCAD model when the 4th-order subwoofer high-pass transfer function was used, together with the various response functions and their sum. As can be seen, once again quite good "integration" has been achieved, although there is a 0.5 dB dip in the crossover region. This can be improved a little by simply increasing the low-pass filter frequency on the subwoofer from 80 Hz to 90 Hz.

Below is the VituixCAD model when the 6th-order subwoofer high-pass transfer function was used, together with the various response functions and their sum. As can be seen, the "integration" is less than stellar, as there is an almost 2 dB dip in the summed response. Owing to all the phase shifts that are taking place, this dip resists being reduced by simply shifting the subwoofer's low-pass filter frequency.

If we apply some parametric EQ to the system, with one equalizer operating on the subwoofer and another operating on the main speaker, the following result can be achieved. Notice how little the group delay curve (black line) is affected by all of the EQ that has been added, even though the EQ boost has been around 2 dB.

 

[john11]

Subwoofers are good, but room acoustics are where the real payoff is.
Room acoustics make a huge difference to the sound.
My listening room used to be that classic shoebox shape, then i moved house and my listening room is now square.
The sound quality plummmeted downhill, i thought the removal men must have dropped all of my gear and broken it

 

[witwald]

Square? The classic dimensions for multiple coincident modes. Hopefully the ceiling height wasn't equal to the width and depth! Did you try and use any room correction on the audio to try and improve the sound quality?