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Subwoofer Comparison

Hi all,

Hope that someone can help me with this question. I just upgrade my Subwoofer from Klipsch r-120sw to SVS PB-2000pro. I put the SVS into the same spot, in the front between my 2 main speakers. Strangely, I feel like the SVS is weaker. It cannot pressurize the room as strong as the Klipsch. What should be the cause? Rear port vs Front port or my SVS has issue?

My room is a L-shape room with living room go through the kitchen. The total area of the L-shape is around 35m2
 
killitmore said:
Hi all,

Hope that someone can help me with this question. I just upgrade my Subwoofer from Klipsch r-120sw to SVS PB-2000pro. I put the SVS into the same spot, in the front between my 2 main speakers. Strangely, I feel like the SVS is weaker. It cannot pressurize the room as strong as the Klipsch. What should be the cause? Rear port vs Front port or my SVS has issue?

My room is a L-shape room with living room go through the kitchen. The total area of the L-shape is around 35m2
Click to expand...
Did you rerun room EQ when you swapped subwoofers? If the AVR is set for what the r-120sw can do then you may not be getting the best out of the PB-2000 pro.

Another possibility is the SVS is 'cleaner' than the Klipsch. Harmonic distortion, which less expensive subwoofers typically have in abundance, tends to make bass sound full and rich. That's not really bass however, so it's a bit deceiving. If you go from that to a sub which doesn't have the same distortion profile it can tend to make bass seem thinner and less powerful
 
theJman said:
Did you rerun room EQ when you swapped subwoofers? If the AVR is set for what the r-120sw can do then you may not be getting the best out of the PB-2000 pro.

Another possibility is the SVS is 'cleaner' than the Klipsch. Harmonic distortion, which less expensive subwoofers typically have in abundance, tends to make bass sound full and rich. That's not really bass however, so it's a bit deceiving. If you go from that to a sub which doesn't have the same distortion profile it can tend to make bass seem thinner and less powerful
Click to expand...
I am using Outlaw rr2150 reciever, not AVR. I guess harmonic distortion might be one factor. I am planning to do some REW measurement next week to EQ the SVS using its PEQ EQ feature.
Tks for your reply.
 
killitmore said:
I am using Outlaw rr2150 reciever, not AVR. I guess harmonic distortion might be one factor. I am planning to do some REW measurement next week to EQ the SVS using its PEQ EQ feature.
Tks for your reply.
Click to expand...
What's the volume set to on the SVS app? Also, is the crossover for the subwoofer set on the receiver, the subwoofer, or both? And what is the crossover set to?

Comparing the output of the R-121SW (which I'm assuming is a newer version of your sub) with the PB-2000 Pro, we can see noticeably more output with the SVS across the board:
1725702431869.png
 
CrypticSignal said:
What's the volume set to on the SVS app? Also, is the crossover for the subwoofer set on the receiver, the subwoofer, or both? And what is the crossover set to?

Comparing the output of the R-121SW (which I'm assuming is a newer version of your sub) with the PB-2000 Pro, we can see noticeably more output with the SVS across the board:
View attachment 390724
Click to expand...
I set svs life on, crossover is done via bass management feature in Outlaw rr2150. The crossover freq is 80 Hz. Svs volume is -10db. I am wondering do I need to set phase =90 as my main is kef reference mode two.2 which has woofer floor firing instead of front firing.
 
killitmore said:
I set svs life on, crossover is done via bass management feature in Outlaw rr2150. The crossover freq is 80 Hz. Svs volume is -10db. I am wondering do I need to set phase =90 as my main is kef reference mode two.2 which has woofer floor firing instead of front firing.
Click to expand...

You have to do some setup and calibration to determine the best settings. Does the Outlaw have any sort of auto-setup? If not, you'll need something like a test setup DVD/Blu-ray, or something to measure and adjust.
 
ExPerfectionist said:
You have to do some setup and calibration to determine the best settings. Does the Outlaw have any sort of auto-setup? If not, you'll need something like a test setup DVD/Blu-ray, or something to measure and adjust.
Click to expand...
Outlaw doesn't have any sort of auto-setup. I will use my laptop with REW for measurement and adjustment. Thanks for your reply.
 
sweetchaos said:
Can’t wait for CEA-2010 data. I expect nothing less than perfection from such a well-performing brand. My guess is it will probably compete with Monoprice’s subs in terms of value for money, but we’ll know for sure with CEA data.
Click to expand...
Are you waiting for a review to publish CEA-2010 numbers before adding the VTF-TN1 to the spreadsheet? Can we take it from the mfg., here: https://hsuresearch.com/collections/collections-true-subwoofers-subset-collection/products/vtf-tn1 (specifically the tables) and subtract 6dB for 2m:

VTF-TN1 One Port Open:​

1725951039184.png


Two Ports Open:​

1725951078215.png
 
How about using these measurements for the HSU VTF-TN1?
www.audioholics.com

Hsu Research VTF-TN1 15" Subwoofer Review

The VTF-TN1 is the newest flagship subwoofer that boasts a 15" driver and 600-watt amp from Hsu Research. Read our review to find out what Hsu Research did to pull off this minor miracle.
www.audioholics.com www.audioholics.com
 
Hey all,

I’m setting up a system for a room that’s around 1,800 cubic feet, and I’m looking for the best subwoofer with no budget constraints.
One specific concern is group delay—I’ve noticed that the sheet don’t explicitly mention it, and I want to ensure that whatever sub I choose provides tight, accurate bass. Thank you!
 
Deluxillo said:
Hey all,

I’m setting up a system for a room that’s around 1,800 cubic feet, and I’m looking for the best subwoofer with no budget constraints.
One specific concern is group delay—I’ve noticed that the sheet don’t explicitly mention it, and I want to ensure that whatever sub I choose provides tight, accurate bass. Thank you!
Click to expand...
Group delay can be accounted for in DSP/processing. If price is no object, I assume you have a high-end processor also? Do you want the sub for HT or music or both?

... and I'm only being semi-serious here, but do you happen to have a large air volume available (like another room) that shares a wall with this room? Doing a true-IB setup is usually the best if you can swing it (though that word obviously has many meanings!). Do a bit of searching for "architectural subwoofer" and see if it might be feasible!

Edit for clarity: I meant the word "best" has many meanings, not any other word in that sentence you might have thought!
 
Last edited:
spock said:
Group delay can be accounted for in DSP/processing. If price is no object, I assume you have a high-end processor also? Do you want the sub for HT or music or both?

... and I'm only being semi-serious here, but do you happen to have a large air volume available (like another room) that shares a wall with this room? Doing a true-IB setup is usually the best if you can swing it (though that word obviously has many meanings!). Do a bit of searching for "architectural subwoofer" and see if it might be feasible!

Edit for clarity: I meant the word "best" has many meanings, not any other word in that sentence you might have thought!
Click to expand...
I don’t have a DSP yet, but I’m looking to get one so I can do parametric EQ and properly adjust the subwoofer. I also want it to configure a 4.1 system. If you have any recommendations for a good DSP, I’d appreciate it if you could let me know.

As for the sub, I’ll simply place it in the spot where it sounds best using the crawling method. Both music and video content
 
Personally I use a Monolith HTP-1 with Dirac DLBC that does a great job. Many people use MiniDSP and that might be up your alley too. Denon/Marantz have some new products with Dirac that could be interesting but I don't have experience with. At higher price points, Storm Audio, Trinnov, etc.

To keep it on-topic, I'm looking at picking up a HSU VTF-TN1 partially because it's so "analog" and I'm absolutely not against digital but I like doing it all in one spot (the HTP-1 in my case). That's why I was poking @sweetchaos gently earlier to see if it can be added to the spreadsheet :)
 
Hi sweetchaos,
Nice work !

I just pop up & looked at the spreadsheet :
1. some features about design & so forth like dimensions... ok... fair.
2. but a sub is intended to act like a sub.... :cool:
thus, what's missing in the spreadsheet is : the info from the manufacturer vs the -3dB low side / high side of the spectrum of the sub : simple as that.

Because anyone asks a sub to go down as much as possible (-3dB), given its price => because low freq is related to the the price.

Then, just my example, I have a sub rated @ 16Hz min @-3dB, but in fact, my measurements shows that it goes down to 13Hz => my 2cents : any manufacturer don't cheat about "low freq".

Of course, my blabla above is based on : a sub must be located at the right place given room interaction.... basic stuff
 
spock said:
To keep it on-topic, I'm looking at picking up a HSU VTF-TN1 partially because it's so "analog" and I'm absolutely not against digital but I like doing it all in one spot (the HTP-1 in my case). That's why I was poking @sweetchaos gently earlier to see if it can be added to the spreadsheet :)
Click to expand...
I just had a VTF-TN1 in my HT for about 5 weeks, Hsu did a very good job with it. Even using EQ1 - which is deepest extension - it proved unflappable. If you want something analog and old school, yet still using current materials and technologies, it's certainly hard to beat. Double bonus is that it's not expensive, relative to the competition.
 
sweetchaos said:
I've created a *slightly large* subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. :D
Click to expand...
Nice sheet!!

As far as the new Buchardt Sub10 goes your crossover section is, well, at least a bit misleading.
If the Sub10 is connected between Preamp and Poweramp (or between DAC with volume control and Poweramp) it does provide high pass filters for the main speakers (configurable through the Buchardt App).
Even more so you can use the entire built-in room correction and EQ section for the sub as well as for the main speakers.
 
First of all thank you a lot @sweetchaos for all the massive effort put into this very useful spreadsheet.

Some remarks from looking at the spreadsheet:
I'm searching for smaller subs (10" or less) available in the EU, for a small room where I listen at low volumes to Emotiva B1+, which are nearfield on the desk. Mixed use, for music, movies and gaming.
Mostly interested in getting some low frequency extension, as the Emotiva's drop like a rock below 60 Hz.
I don't need high output volume at all. I suppose some EQ (already inherent in the sub or otherwise) will be preferable to get extension at low volumes. Unfortunately my AVR, Denon X1200W lowest manual EQ frequency is 63 Hz.

So anyway, based on the spreadsheet and availability, I narrowed it down to a few:
  1. I think of going for the BK Electronics XLS200-DF MK2 which still has 84.2 db ouput at 15 Hz in the spreadsheet? According to BK Elec, the new version of this one is BK XLS300-DF. Seems the only change is the wattage (which is now 300). But no measurements yet of that revision. £382.95.
  2. Cost efficient would be the aforementioned PreSonus Eris Sub 8 BT for ~€ 200
  3. The Polk HTS 10, seems it actually has better extension (80.1 db at 20Hz) than the Polk HTS 12 (which didn't pass the 20Hz distortion test, but it has higher 25Hz output) (although the first was measured by Brent Butterworth and the second by Audioholics). ~€ 400
Or anyone else has another idea?

Some I had to exclude
Not available in the EU: the Monoprice Monolith 10" THX Select, RSL Speedwoofer 10S MKII, HSU Research VTF-1 MK3, XTZ SUB 10.17 (out of stock).
The Sonos Sub Mini (but it's wireless and I have a Denon X1200W AVR, not Sonos),
Out of budget: KEF Kube 10b/12b, KEF KF92 , SVS Micro 3000, B&O subwoofers
Discontinued: Definitive Technology SuperCube series, ELAC SUB2030 (still available but also no measurements)
Not the best cost/performance: Dali E-9 (lowest rated frequency 37 Hz...), Wavemaster Fusion which has been measured to only go down to 30 Hz (https://www.igorslab.de/en/wavemast...t-many-balett-for-bottom-on-smallest-space/2/), same for the Audio Pro Addon C-Sub.

I also found some subs that may be 'interesting' that aren't in the spreadsheet yet.
From cheap to more expensive:
In some other threads in this forum on subs for small rooms (example https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-subwoofers-with-near-20hz-performance.15548/ ), I read about MJ Acoustics, which sounds good (pre EQ-ed for extension, output limited subwoofers).
But unless there's some measurements of those showing clear superiority, I'd consider them overpriced (https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/mj-acoustics-pro-50-mkiii-subwoofer for their cheapest model, £595.00 for a 10" promising "bass out put down to 13hz and a -3db rating at 19hz in room").
 
Last edited:
XDM said:
First of all thank you a lot @sweetchaos for all the massive effort put into this
I'm searching for smaller subs (10" or less) available in the EU, for a small room where I listen at low volumes to Emotiva B1+, which are nearfield on the desk. Mixed use, for music, movies and gaming.
Mostly interested in getting some low frequency extension, as the Emotiva's drop like a rock below 60 Hz.
I don't need high output volume at all. I suppose some EQ (already inherent in the sub or otherwise) will be preferable to get extension at low volumes. Unfortunately my AVR, Denon X1200W lowest manual EQ frequency is 63 Hz.

So anyway, based on the spreadsheet and availability, I narrowed it down to a few:
  1. I think of going for the BK Electronics XLS200-DF MK2 which still has 84.2 db ouput at 15 Hz in the spreadsheet? According to BK Elec, the new version of this one is BK XLS300-DF. Seems the only change is the wattage (which is now 300). But no measurements yet of that revision. £382.95.
  2. Cost efficient would be the aforementioned PreSonus Eris Sub 8 BT for ~€ 200
  3. The Polk HTS 10, seems it actually has better extension (80.1 db at 20Hz) than the Polk HTS 12 (which didn't pass the 20Hz distortion test, but it has higher 25Hz output) (although the first was measured by Brent Butterworth and the second by Audioholics). ~€ 400
Click to expand...
I replaced the polk HTS 10 when I moved up in speaker size with the Polk HTS 12. Apart from the size the amp inside is more powerfull. Obviously, I liked the form factor with the rounded edges and the front driver and down firing port.
The HTS 10 I got and sold it for around €250 (second deal). The HTS 12 for €400 new. Still in use.
 
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