• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Subwoofer Comparison

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,757
Likes
5,918
Location
PNW
Thanks, let me read about it. Not sure if it is easy to DIY

A sub is a relatively simple diy project, particularly a sealed box.....if you have the tools, time and can live with your own finishing skills :) They also have a very good 18" driver in the HST-III, and a bit less expensive. You could also check out flatpacks for some of the drivers from diysoundgroup.com or parts-express.com (same guy supplies the flatpacks for both companies) to simplify things a bit. I'd not bother with a plate amp, but use a rack style amp.
 

rlal

Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
16
Likes
3
Location
United States
A sub is a relatively simple diy project, particularly a sealed box.....if you have the tools, time and can live with your own finishing skills :) They also have a very good 18" driver in the HST-III, and a bit less expensive. You could also check out flatpacks for some of the drivers from diysoundgroup.com or parts-express.com (same guy supplies the flatpacks for both companies) to simplify things a bit. I'd not bother with a plate amp, but use a rack style amp.

Thanks for the details and suggestions. Let me check it out.
 

stren

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
254
Likes
298
It'd be also nice to list finish options too - helpful for when you want a white option, or black gloss or custom :)
 
OP
sweetchaos

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,872
Likes
11,554
Location
BC, Canada
Improvements...
Added 'Company's Headquarters (Country)' to the following tabs:
- Comparison
- Statistics

Had to reference my previous post "List of Speaker Companies" for this information.

Now you can filter by location...:)

Added 'Websites (outside of ASR) that link back to my post':
- On post #2.

Now I can track how people are discussing this thread outside of ASR. ;)
 

warthor

Active Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
125
Likes
72
Has anyone reviewed the new SB or PB 1000 pro yet? I know audioholics had been working on a review. I suspect they will be quite good. Gene even mentioned he thinks they may get the "large" bassaholics rating (in an interview with Erin).
 

_thelaughingman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
1,325
Likes
1,944
Has anyone reviewed the new SB or PB 1000 pro yet? I know audioholics had been working on a review. I suspect they will be quite good. Gene even mentioned he thinks they may get the "large" bassaholics rating (in an interview with Erin).
I’m hoping it gets reviewed soon because I’m torn between the 1000pro or a monolith thx which has good ratings too.
 

warthor

Active Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
125
Likes
72
I’m hoping it gets reviewed soon because I’m torn between the 1000pro or a monolith thx which has good ratings too.

I cannot advise you on issues of sound quality but SVS has exceptional customer service and warranty support. Also SVS is located in Youngstown, Ohio, so you might be able to save on shipping. I have heard numerous reports of issues with Monolith support (enough that Monolith was removed from recommended brands on the HT forums on Reddit). SVS has many reports of replacing amps outside the warranty window (search reddit to find some examples).

Also Power Sound Audio is based in Ohio. Also worth looking into and may offer a no shipping discount.
 
OP
sweetchaos

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,872
Likes
11,554
Location
BC, Canada
Improvements...
Problem:
I got tired of manually converting currencies, so I removed my "All currencies converted to USD" column.
Solution:
Added 4 columns now:
1. Price
=> Price from mfg or 3rd party websites.
- If bold, price was taken from mfg website.
- If non-bold, price was taken from 3rd party website.
- If "n/a" it means I couldnt find any reliable sellers that sell that item. I specifically ignored website that sell 2nd-hand, like ebay, etc.
- For Canadian and US market, I know the market well, so it was easy to find reliable price data.
- For European website, it was more challenging, but I think it turned out okay. Let me know if there's any major mistakes there.
2. Currency
=> Added currency that I saw for each item, from the same website.
3. Converted to USD
=> I created a simple excel formula to convert 6 most-common currencies to USD equivalent
4. Converted to EUR
=> I created a simple excel formula to convert 6 most-common currencies to EUR equivalent

Because I did this, I had to find all prices again...that took a while, but I believe it was worth the effort.

Stay tuned, I have more exciting news soon.
 
OP
sweetchaos

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,872
Likes
11,554
Location
BC, Canada
Improvements...

Here's the news!

Added 15 more subwoofer models with CEA-2010-A data. :D
From 2 sources:
1. https://www.soundandvision.com/
Measured by Brent Butterworth, but he didn't include in his main spreadsheet, so I'm including them in 'Others' tab.
There were several other subwoofers that were measured by Brent and presented on SoundAndVision, but I didn't include, since they were duplicates with Brent's spreadsheet.
Also, Sound and Vision no longer provides CEA-2010-A data, but they did, briefly a long time ago.
2. https://hometheaterreview.com/
Different models were measured by different people:
- Brent Butterworth
- Dennis Burger
- Brian Kahn
I have CEA-2010-A data from years 2016, 2018, 2019 and 2021...very inconsistent.
There were several other subwoofers that were measured by Brent and presented on HomeTheaterReview, but I didn't include, since they were duplicates with Brent's spreadsheet.

Here are the added models:
2021-03-10 16_33_06-Subwoofer Comparison (by @sweetchaos) - Google Sheets.png
 

Somafunk

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2021
Messages
1,311
Likes
3,027
Location
Scotland
KRK have new subs out this month, link here, I mentioned in another thread that I was perfectly happy with my KRK 10s paired with KRK G4 Rokit 7’s but then again a new sub with an improved port design has me yelling “take my money” ;),
 
OP
sweetchaos

sweetchaos

Major Contributor
The Curator
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
3,872
Likes
11,554
Location
BC, Canada
KRK have new subs out this month, link here, I mentioned in another thread that I was perfectly happy with my KRK 10s paired with KRK G4 Rokit 7’s but then again a new sub with an improved port design has me yelling “take my money” ;),
Saw it. I'm tracking KRK website on daily basis to see when they will release more info.

We really need more studio subwoofers tested...*cough* Erin *cough*

Best selling on sweetwater.com? JBL LSR310S (US$400)
Best selling on bhphotovideo.com? KRK 10s (US$400)
Best selling on guitarcenter.com? KRK 10s (US$400)
 

Trdat

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
968
Likes
396
Location
Yerevan "Sydney Born"
I am still perplexed why any of these comparisons including the Klipell system doesn't have a way to measure or rank subwoofer tightness or overhang or transients. I know it's not an exact science but we know enough about it.

Doesn't an impulse response give us an idea of how quick the driver comes to a stop in a given enclosure?

Isn't how accurate each bass note hits without overhang an important aspect of understanding how a subwoofer sounds or at least compares to another sub? Potentially leaving the customer with the choice and with important information.
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,923
Likes
7,616
Location
Canada
I am still perplexed why any of these comparisons including the Klipell system doesn't have a way to measure or rank subwoofer tightness or overhang or transients. I know it's not an exact science but we know enough about it.

Plenty of sub reviewers check group delay which is the most important sub attribute that contributes to this, as far as I know. Of course, room modes are a much much bigger offender in making bass seem boomy or slow than anything to do with the properties of a sub.
 

_thelaughingman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
1,325
Likes
1,944
I cannot advise you on issues of sound quality but SVS has exceptional customer service and warranty support. Also SVS is located in Youngstown, Ohio, so you might be able to save on shipping. I have heard numerous reports of issues with Monolith support (enough that Monolith was removed from recommended brands on the HT forums on Reddit). SVS has many reports of replacing amps outside the warranty window (search reddit to find some examples).

Also Power Sound Audio is based in Ohio. Also worth looking into and may offer a no shipping discount.


I think i am going to get the PB1000pro and currently SVS is shipping it for free. I couldn't find any local dealers to just go pick it up at in cleveland, but i'll take the free shipping.
 

Trdat

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
968
Likes
396
Location
Yerevan "Sydney Born"
Plenty of sub reviewers check group delay which is the most important sub attribute that contributes to this, as far as I know. Of course, room modes are a much much bigger offender in making bass seem boomy or slow than anything to do with the properties of a sub.

Yeh, but group delay is an indication not a test directly measuring overhang. My understanding was impulse response measures when a sub woofer stops and that although group delay is an indicator its not the best way to understand about its transients.

I have also had people state that there is no such thing transients and that group delay has nothing to do with it. There must be some science on it and I am sure there is just probably not 100% yet.

TBH, I am just curious why its not an important aspect of asssesing a sub woofer. Its the first thing I take in consideration when designing a sub woofer, its alignment and how to get decent transients whether its from the cabinet or driver.
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,923
Likes
7,616
Location
Canada
TBH, I am just curious why its not an important aspect of asssesing a sub woofer. Its the first thing I take in consideration when designing a sub woofer, its alignment and how to get decent transients whether its from the cabinet or driver.

Well that would explain why it's not important, right? If every professional sub manufacturer is aware that they need to keep these measurements reasonable, and designing subs seems to be quite a lot simpler than designing multi-way speakers, then very few subs are going to have any issues in that area.

In fact that seems to be the case... data-bass.com shows impulse response, waterfall, and group delay for every sub they've measured, and just about every single one I've looked at from a significant manufacturer has no issues. When there is an issue, such as with the Danley DTS-10, it shows up clearly by measuring group delay. That would indicate that any time domain issues likely to be audible will always show up in group delay. So from the consumer perspective(not manufacturer) the other measurements/graphs don't seem to provide much useful information.
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,335
Likes
6,700
I am still perplexed why any of these comparisons including the Klipell system doesn't have a way to measure or rank subwoofer tightness or overhang or transients. I know it's not an exact science but we know enough about it.

Doesn't an impulse response give us an idea of how quick the driver comes to a stop in a given enclosure?

Isn't how accurate each bass note hits without overhang an important aspect of understanding how a subwoofer sounds or at least compares to another sub? Potentially leaving the customer with the choice and with important information.

Databass measured group delay, as well as a few other time related metrics which I think are sufficient for time related performance assessment. We don't hear time related bass issues well at all.

Yeh, but group delay is an indication not a test directly measuring overhang. My understanding was impulse response measures when a sub woofer stops and that although group delay is an indicator its not the best way to understand about its transients.

I have also had people state that there is no such thing transients and that group delay has nothing to do with it. There must be some science on it and I am sure there is just probably not 100% yet.

TBH, I am just curious why its not an important aspect of asssesing a sub woofer. Its the first thing I take in consideration when designing a sub woofer, its alignment and how to get decent transients whether its from the cabinet or driver.

I think it's because we're not very sensitive to time related issues at bass frequencies, and almost all great subs tend to have time domain errors that are well below audible thresholds.

If you're hearing time time domain issues, it likely has nothing to do with the "speed" of the sub itself. Much more likely the culprit is one or more of the following:,

1. Room issues
2. Position issues (similar to room issues, but fixable)
3. Too much extension(lower extension will sound slower, because those frequencies are slower to develop).
4. Expectation bias (there's a lot of this, with companies like REL marketing their subs as such, which introduces expectation bias)

If your sub(s) sounds too slow, I would:

1. Measure to see what your working with
2. Experiment with position, crossover, and EQ, and remeasure
3. If you've got multiple subs, make sure they're time aligned to you ears(impulse response is appropriate for this)

If your subs are time aligned you've got a neutral response, and it still sounds too slow, add a filter to remove everything under 30Hz. You'll lose a lot of the feel, but it will definitely sound faster, if that's what you want.

Only once you've ruled out all of the above would I start looking at the sub itself as the slowness culprit. Personally, I've never heard a sub with time related issues above $1000 or so, though I'm sure they exist. I tend to only look at subs with good objective performance in the first place, so maybe a sample bias there.

Finally, don't underestimate the power of expectation bias. I've personally fallen victim many times, and it's almost impossible to avoid.

I personally wouldn't worry much about time related performance. Just buy one with good objective performance(Rythmik, HSU, ect.) and you'll get time domain performance below audible thresholds. Distortion limited output is what separates the winners from the losers imo, and that's what I mostly look for.

What budget are you looking at?
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,335
Likes
6,700
Well that would explain why it's not important, right? If every professional sub manufacturer is aware that they need to keep these measurements reasonable, and designing subs seems to be quite a lot simpler than designing multi-way speakers, then very few subs are going to have any issues in that area.

In fact that seems to be the case... data-bass.com shows impulse response, waterfall, and group delay for every sub they've measured, and just about every single one I've looked at from a significant manufacturer has no issues. When there is an issue, such as with the Danley DTS-10, it shows up clearly by measuring group delay. That would indicate that any time domain issues likely to be audible will always show up in group delay. So from the consumer perspective(not manufacturer) the other measurements/graphs don't seem to provide much useful information.

And I've heard the DTS-10 several times and never thought it sounded slow. I think it takes really bad time domain performance for it to become audible at frequencies that low.

and just about every single one I've looked at from a significant manufacturer has no issues.

I do think there's a bit of a sample bias going on here. I think databass tended(past tense :() to measure only the cream of the crop. The manufacturers sending their subs in for testing tend to be the manufacturers that are confident in their sub's objective performance. You don't see a lot of the cheaper audiophile brand subs being tested, which may not show such excellent performance.

Subjectively, my Infinity R12 and Monoprice 12($99) subs do sound "slower" to my ears. It could easily be the room's they're in, though. I've never tried bringing them out into another room for testing.
 

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,907
Likes
13,908
Location
North Alabama
Top Bottom