Subwoofer Comparison

[Oddball]

Lol, as Oddball, feel obliged to throw in a curve ball. With all due respect to AVM-90 which is a terrific unit, I am not sure if ARC is really the best system to manage monster bass.

There is Dirac ART that is available on Storm processors and should be available on many other brands (but not Anthem) by end of 2024. Many swear this is the best bass management system ever - so called "game changer". I am not going to endorse Dirac claims and have a separate issue with ART, but in the context of heavily oversized bass system, most of my concerns would go away.

Making such huge investment in the subs but limiting them to the ARC is something I would question at least on conceptual basis. There is little in terms of visibility as to what ART does, but I would not be surprised if it could do much more with lesser subs in your room, with the difference being allocated to the AVR/AVP that should support the ART soon, or even Storm (with some additional investment).

 

[deep bass]

I agree with you that Dirac ART has changed the rules of the game and is better and more professional than ARC, provided that you know how to deal with it.
But a user who does not have experience in Dirac cannot obtain excellent results As for ARC, it is very easy for everyone and it is easy to get excellent results in general.

 

[ban25]

I agree with you that Dirac ART has changed the rules of the game and is better and more professional than ARC, provided that you know how to deal with it.
But a user who does not have experience in Dirac cannot obtain excellent results As for ARC, it is very easy for everyone and it is easy to get excellent results in general.

FWIW, few ARC users seem to have bothered to measure, and those that did (@peng) found that a decent amount of tweaking was necessary for good results.

TLDR; Don't believe anybody who doesn't show measurements.

 

[peng]

FWIW, few ARC users seem to have bothered to measure, and those that did (@peng) found that a decent amount of tweaking was necessary for good results.

TLDR; Don't believe anybody who doesn't show measurements.

Thank you for mentioning this. Another interesting thing I noticed with us ARCG users is that on the currently over 1,200 pages AVM owner's thread on AVSF, many people seemed very happy with their "corrected" files done by one member who has been very willing to help other member users. So, while such great help is there, there could be a long wait (just guessing though). I find it interesting because this very helpful member could do such a good job for others without being there, and also without help with REW kind of graphs for feedback. I supposed one good thing though is that with MultEQ X, MultEQ Editor app, and of course Dirac Live too, member users on ASR could also send their files to other experienced users who may be willing to help too.

Personally though, I would just rather share my own experience of things that I believe would help tweak for better looking curves, but would let those seeking helps to do their own, and would always suggest they use REW to verify their results after tweaking, as I just don't believe how one can do the tweak for others without actual feedback at least based on REW graphs by the person being helped.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-anthem-avm-70-90-owners-thread.3181385/page-1152#post-63123989

As for ARC, it is very easy for everyone and it is easy to get excellent results in general.

I don't know the basis of your conclusions and I am not trying to contradict you at all, just being curious. If you browse through the ARCG, and/or AVM threads on ASR, and especially the gigantic AVSforum users thread, there are many examples of users having trouble getting excellent results with ARCG, to the point many seek help from others, notably their resident expert "Yonettes" who said he had help over 2,000!! Take a read of the his post I linked above.

ARC Genesis results

Room correction always sparks interesting dialog. Does it add noise, does it improve SQ, is one better than the other.... Well I don't intend to chat about any of that. But, I am posting my results using ARC in my AVM 70 for those who care about such things. The Quick Measure feature is great...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sound quality is mostly subjective so I will not debate with anyone on what is "excellent results", but I would suggest to those who has not decided on which RC software to choose for their devices do their own research and focus not only on users subjective reviews, but also measurements posted by users. I would say the same for the upcoming reviews by many (hopefully), as anticipated about DL's ART. So far, I can say DLBC is quite effective, at least for me it is, but can't be sure about ART yet.

 

[radix]

I use ARCG on my Anthem STR preamp. I've posted measurements in the measurements thread. I found it simple to use, but harder to tweak. I did do several rounds of ARCG + REW. I ended up doing some sub correction in the subs themselves, as I could not figure out how to make ARCG do what I wanted. Maybe it was pilot error. Anyway, between some PEQ tweaks in subs EQ and the ARCG correction, I do like the end result.

 

[Tavus]

I need some advice. I just bought a brand-new unused SVS SB13 Ultra.
Is it still a good home theater subwoofer? I regret my purchase because, from what your charts say, the sub lacks 20hrz output and below.
It only goes 99DB in a 20 hrz and 95DB at15. Will that be enough slam for movies? Maybe I should have bought the pb3000? Should i feel bad for such a bad decision?

My room is a 2100 CU FT rectangle. BTW I'm not from the USA so my sub choices are few.

 

[peng]

I need some advice. I just bought a brand-new unused SVS SB13 Ultra.
Is it still a good home theater subwoofer? I regret my purchase because, from what your charts say, the sub lacks 20hrz output and below.
It only goes 99DB in a 20 hrz and 95DB at15. Will that be enough slam for movies? Maybe I should have bought the pb3000? Should i feel bad for such a bad decision?

View attachment 365442

My room is a 2100 CU FT rectangle. BTW I'm not from the USA so my sub choices are few.

Depending on room gain, you may get enough spl for movies. Obviously, if you listen to ref level, it may not get you there, but it still may, again, how much roomgain you get is key, I think....

 

[Oddball]

At some other forums the response would be clear - get another one

Not sure how your room deals with infra-bass, some rooms freak out and resonate, vibrate etc. at certain (usually high) SPL, which could be potentially fixed, or not. Ported sub could potentially do a bit more output but then at 20hz it would be close to its likely tuning frequency so questionable how much more. Not sure what measurements and at what distance are those you posted, but as PC 4000 owner (for most part cylinder version of PB 4000), can tell you that if you like infra bass, you should go beyond PB 3000 and even 4000, unless you manage to squeeze in some nice room gain in the infra bass area. One could expect some solid gains you could have in the room of your size if you find the right position. How it would interact with the overall response is another questions, but you can always find the best compromise with testing multiple positions.

 

[radix]

I need some advice. I just bought a brand-new unused SVS SB13 Ultra.
Is it still a good home theater subwoofer? I regret my purchase because, from what your charts say, the sub lacks 20hrz output and below.
It only goes 99DB in a 20 hrz and 95DB at15. Will that be enough slam for movies? Maybe I should have bought the pb3000? Should i feel bad for such a bad decision?

View attachment 365442

My room is a 2100 CU FT rectangle. BTW I'm not from the USA so my sub choices are few.

Sealed subs are smaller, and I think, prettier (lots of exceptions). In my room, I have limited space, so I use 2x SB-2000s. Each extra sub will add +3dB.

Ported subs are generally considered better for sound effects and movies, and they do can put out more umph for those explosions and rumbles compared to similar priced sealed.

I think the first step is to get an SPL meter (a umik-1 or even an SPL app on your phone) and figure out how loud do you actually listen? If you're listening within the sub's capability, it will be just fine.

I assume you integrated it with your AVR? Did you have to crank the volume all the way up on it? Usually (at least my denon and old yamaha) my AVR has me first balance the sub volume then it equalized it. If you have not cranked the sub's own volume up past 70-75% (that's guess by me), then you're likely not driving too hard.

To reiterate, i'd get a measurement mic and use REW to confirm how it is performing after being integrated in your system before tossing it based on the spreadsheet. Your in-room response will vary a lot from the measurement conditions.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, that line in the spreadsheet is the maximum SPL output at a frequency for a given distortion. The sub will go louder at that frequency, it just has more distortion. You might not notice.

 

[radix]

I need some advice. I just bought a brand-new unused SVS SB13 Ultra.
Is it still a good home theater subwoofer? I regret my purchase because, from what your charts say, the sub lacks 20hrz output and below.
It only goes 99DB in a 20 hrz and 95DB at15. Will that be enough slam for movies? Maybe I should have bought the pb3000? Should i feel bad for such a bad decision?

View attachment 365442

My room is a 2100 CU FT rectangle. BTW I'm not from the USA so my sub choices are few.

Here's the PB-3000 vs the SB13-Ultra. I doubt it will make much difference to you unless you really are listening at very high volume. 2dB at 20 Hz or 3dB at 15 Hz. Yeah, at 25-50 Hz it's a lot more power. But you need to know if that's actually an issue for how loud you listen.

 

[Tavus]

At some other forums the response would be clear - get another one

Not sure how your room deals with infra-bass, some rooms freak out and resonate, vibrate etc. at certain (usually high) SPL, which could be potentially fixed, or not. Ported sub could potentially do a bit more output but then at 20hz it would be close to its likely tuning frequency so questionable how much more. Not sure what measurements and at what distance are those you posted, but as PC 4000 owner (for most part cylinder version of PB 4000), can tell you that if you like infra bass, you should go beyond PB 3000 and even 4000, unless you manage to squeeze in some nice room gain in the infra bass area. One could expect some solid gains you could have in the room of your size if you find the right position. How it would interact with the overall response is another questions, but you can always find the best compromise with testing multiple positions.

I agree a lot, I wanted a pb4000 but sadly only the sb13 ultra was on sale. I got the biggest sub i can afford.

 

[Tavus]

Here's the PB-3000 vs the SB13-Ultra. I doubt it will make much difference to you unless you really are listening at very high volume. 2dB at 20 Hz or 3dB at 15 Hz. Yeah, at 25-50 Hz it's a lot more power. But you need to know if that's actually an issue for how loud you listen.

View attachment 365466

Sealed subs are smaller, and I think, prettier (lots of exceptions). In my room, I have limited space, so I use 2x SB-2000s. Each extra sub will add +3dB.

Ported subs are generally considered better for sound effects and movies, and they do can put out more umph for those explosions and rumbles compared to similar priced sealed.

I think the first step is to get an SPL meter (a umik-1 or even an SPL app on your phone) and figure out how loud do you actually listen? If you're listening within the sub's capability, it will be just fine.

I assume you integrated it with your AVR? Did you have to crank the volume all the way up on it? Usually (at least my denon and old yamaha) my AVR has me first balance the sub volume then it equalized it. If you have not cranked the sub's own volume up past 70-75% (that's guess by me), then you're likely not driving too hard.

To reiterate, i'd get a measurement mic and use REW to confirm how it is performing after being integrated in your system before tossing it based on the spreadsheet. Your in-room response will vary a lot from the measurement conditions.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, that line in the spreadsheet is the maximum SPL output at a frequency for a given distortion. The sub will go louder at that frequency, it just has more distortion. You might not notice.

Come to think of it, the sb ultra not so far off the pb 3000. does that 4db matter in movies? I don't really like listening to high level, it makes my tinnitus come out.
I run the sub with an old pioneer receiver which has the old MCACC which does not EQ bass very well.
I also own an old umik, I don't know how to use it, so its my drawer.

Do you think it was a good idea to buy the sb ultra?

Edit : if I add an additional SVS sb 4000 would that boost 20hrz low bass output ?