Subs not needed thankyou!

[DavidEdwinAston]

Anyone own, and is willing to make the case for , just the two stereo speakers with unaided subterranean bass?

 

[Purité Audio]

IME ‘partners’ are not that keen on even a compact pair of speakers and large ‘full-range’ designs even less, to then add multiple subs… if you have a dedicated room of course.
Keith

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Thanks Keith. I had simply been looking at the largest B&W speakers, online! The stated frequency response certainly sounds like awesome bass!

 

[Purité Audio]

I find a pair of a pair of ‘full-range’ speakers good enough and maintains ( more or less ) domestic harmony!
Keith

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Certainly, my LX's, plus two Rel's will do me, although I do still hanker for the Spendor S100's to be serviced and get lugged back onto the stands!

 

[YouDontHaveEnoughBass]

If you look at designs like the clarity 66 just reviewed by Amir there’d be no need for a sub there but that’s one of few designs that’d get away with it; IMO flat to 40 and still strong at 30 is needed for most music

I’ve got a pair of Ascilab F6B/S (sealed) wall mounted and a SVS 3000 micro hidden away and my girlfriend prefers that to a pair of larger full range speakers sans sub, but that’s all aesthetic taste you’ll be fine either way

 

[Redacted]

Many us cannot use full size speakers and stay married!

 

[PatentLawyer]

For me the biggest argument against subs is integrating them properly. If you have the skill and tools to do it, go for it.

(My main speakers go down to 20 hz or so.)

 

[VMAT4]

I bought BMR towers thinking I wouldn't need a sub. Then I found that I had a 60 Hz null as I had them set up. I still haven't found the "sweet spot" for positioning the speakers. Bass is tricky. Watch out!

 

[SigbergAudio]

Thanks Keith. I had simply been looking at the largest B&W speakers, online! The stated frequency response certainly sounds like awesome bass!

I have two different acquaintances who have the B&W 801 D4. One of them have four subs, and the other have eight (8).

The 801 D4 certainly is quite capable on its own, but "enough" is very relative depending on who you ask. But I am sure many (perhaps also you) would be happy without the subs.

 

[pablolie]

A lot of it clearly is room dependent.

I still have my trusty German towers that go from 25-32kHz. With those I don't feel the need for a sub, but the bass gets murky in my place, so ideally I'd eq some bass out of the pic and use a sub in the "optimal position"... or simply use bookshelves on stands and a sub... and the latter provides the more detailed result, albeit not by much. I could live with either, but like to rotate things around a bit on occasion.

All in all, I find the bookshelf + sub(s) combo more versatile. I don't listen at high SPL, though.

 

[Ruediger]

Anyone own, and is willing to make the case for , just the two stereo speakers with unaided subterranean bass?

Yes. For music I use just FR speakers in the home theater room. Dali Rubikore 8 need no sub assistance to fill a large room.

For actual home theater I enable subs to take over from 60hz FR and 100hz center though. It's much easier to control low frequencies this way and not make a bodyshaker out of the sofa.

 

[Mart68]

Anyone own, and is willing to make the case for , just the two stereo speakers with unaided subterranean bass?

Yes. But yes, very large speakers and I live alone (although it never made any difference in my speaker choices when I didn't).

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Yes. But yes, very large speakers and I live alone (although it never made any difference in my speaker choices when I didn't).

What are your speakers Mart?

 

[jhaider]

Anyone own, and is willing to make the case for , just the two stereo speakers with unaided subterranean bass?

No. IMO high fidelity in a small room requires multiple subwoofers, unless you’re willing to accept the bass quality falling apart outside of a small area in the room.

Note that this has nothing to do with ULF, but rather the room’s modal region.

 

[tmtomh]

I have a pair of Genelec 8351b standmount active speakers in my ≈275sq ft listening room and I enjoy them tremendously as-is, without subs.

I've never been into massive bass but I do like good bass performance that reaches down to about 30Hz in-room. I do have one partial bass null around 105Hz, but it's very narrow and I don't notice it in everyday listening.

However, with all that said, I think @jhaider 's position on this question is by far the dominant one here at ASR, and with good reason. A sub - or ideally two subs - will enable you to maximize bass SPL capacity, and bass linearity, because you can position those bass drivers independently of the main speakers. For example in my case I can essentially eliminate that one partial bass null I mentioned above - but to do that I need to spread the speakers so far apart, and so close to the side walls, that it causes other problems. With subs you reduce or eliminate that kind of tradeoff.

With subs you can also crossover from your main speakers so that the main speakers' midwoofers don't have to operate as low, which can reduce overall distortion produced by those midwoofers.

So in the final analysis, I'd say subs are in most cases necessary from an ideal point of view - but I would also respectfully argue that in many cases with the right speakers, placement, room, and room correction EQ, it's certainly possible to get excellent, highly satisfying stereo performance without subs.

 

[levimax]

Anyone own, and is willing to make the case for , just the two stereo speakers with unaided subterranean bass?

The technical argument would be that 2 full range speakers or 2 tightly colocated subs and mains (sub and main driver centers within 1/4 wavelength of each other) produce a "point source" wave front that preserves the time domain much more accurately that is possible with distributed subs (wave front is defined by frequency, amplitude, phase, and direction). The time domain "sweet spot" for two point sources is also much bigger than with distributed subs (if you move in any direction with distributed subs time domain changes very rapidly compared to a point source wave front).

The audibility of this is very much open to debate especially since many/ most recordings don't capture or retain time domain information accurately and 2 point sources will have a more uneven FR due to room modes than distributed subs. The biggest potential advantage of better LF time domain behavior is probably better "slam" (dP/dT or change in pressure over change in time) if all the energy from a sharp transient arrives at the LP at the same time.

My experience, which has changed recently, is that for traditional DSP schemes distributed subs vs full range point source depends a lot on the room and personal preference and music listened to. The FR graphs always look better with distributed subs but subjective listening is not so clear. Recently I have been playing around with ART (which is a MIMO system) and distributed subs and so far the graphs look great and subjectively the bass sounds better than I have been able to accomplish any other way.

 

[Keith_W]

My main speakers can go flat down to 20Hz. So I did an experiment: what would it sound like if I equalized them flat to 20Hz and turn off my subs?

Green: L+R speakers and both subs playing together. You can see that I am able to use the subs to achieve a flatter curve. Also take note that I am using a 30dB vertical scale, not a standard 50dB. That's because a 50dB scale would make it look even better.
Orange: L+R speakers alone

So you might look at the frequency response and think - OK so the orange curve has a couple of deep nulls close to each other, so of course it would sound like it has less bass. Well, nothing will prepare you for how different the two DSP profiles actually sound. With subs, the sense of immersion is noticeably improved. Large orchestras have more authority. Even a violin sonata sounds like it's taking place in a real acoustic space.

Yes it's true that I could probably get away without any subs. But the improvement is pretty substantial and needs to be heard to be believed.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

Even if I had full range cardioid speakers, I would still use subwoofers. For example, my living room is L shaped and my mlp and speakers are not symmetrical to the room and I have a 70 hz null in my Front Right and Surround Right speakers. A1 Evo Acoustix managed to help minimise that dip and I haven’t done a Dirac ART calibration yet which would expect to help even more.

 

[Gregm]

Thanks Keith. I had simply been looking at the largest B&W speakers, online! The stated frequency response certainly sounds like awesome bass!

As noted above, the subs would be there to help *hear* the speakers' bass, not to enhance it... (annoying resonant peaks, nulls... you know the drill)