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Subjectivist’s rant debunked

Best to have something neutral and uncoloured to start with, then you can add colour or flavour to taste.

But if you've found you like a certain flavouring across everything you listen to then you can buy the product that produces that flavour, with no need to fiddle
with it. It's already "to taste."

I had a digital parametric EQ in my system for a long time. Barely ever used it, because my tube-amp driven system sounded to me wonderful across the spectrum of music I listen to, and I never could perfectly replicate it just using the EQ with a solid state amp. So my tube amps were a "set and forget" solution in that respect, offered other aesthetic and conceptual pleasures the EQ box did not, and so the EQ box ended up as just a bit of expensive gear taking up room on the rack so I sold it.


If you have a raw chicken, you can turn it into a madras or a coq au vin, but if you start with a madras you're kind of stuck with it. :)

The problem with the analogy is that the level of flavouring you are describing with respect to food tends to be vastly higher than the type of flavouring I would be talking about. The variety is coming from the recordings themselves. A bit o' tube amp flavouring (or I think the coloration from the Devore speakers) would not come close to changing a recording in the way the cooking choices would for chicken. It's just a nudge, so it's far from "everything sounds the same"...recordings sound extremely different from each other.
 
One of the major points of DeVore critics is that they don't like the sound. I realize that you have stated several times that you do like the sound, but I believe that you are one member of a very small club, at least as far as the marketplace goes.

Sure, small audio companies serve a niche audience. Taste is taste. But his O series speakers did, to a degree, make a significant splash in the audiophile world. The demand has never slowed down for the last decade, he can barely keep up with the orders, and they are one of the most sought after speakers on the used market.

Let me put it to you another way. I mentioned that there are thousands of people visiting this forum, looking for advice.

Would you advise them to purchase the DeVore speakers, and pay the DeVore price? What do you believe their reaction would be?

No. I would never, and have never advocated for a loudspeaker, in terms of suggesting anyone "should" buy the speaker. (Or amp, or anything).

Insofar as I would be an influence, it would be along the lines of just describing what I liked about a loudspeaker, and then anyone can say "Hmmm...that sounds like
the type of thing I'd be interested in" or they can give it whatever relevance they want. And if someone were looking for a technically neutral speaker, I could say "well, here are some speakers that measure that way..." and the value proposition is of course up to them.

I've seen similar "attacks" even on the Joseph Audio speakers, where people say "but look it's JUST the SEAS drivers on a box and you could make that on your own for the price of the parts...!" Yeah, but not everyone wants to DIY, and it's not guaranteed you'd end up making a speaker with the exact sonic profile Joseph carefully arrived at, which some people love. So in terms of influencing, an example would be on audiogon someone was asking if anyone compared the Joseph Perspective speakers vs the Harbeth Super HL5 + speakers. Well...I happened to have owned both speakers, so I wrote that the best I can do is describe what I found to be the strengths and weaknesses of both, as I heard them. And then you can decide how much weight to give any of that, and if it's any help. Well, turns out the guy was intrigued by the comparison, from my description thought the Josephs might bring certain aspects he was looking for, he bought the Joseph speakers and reported back he was thrilled because they had exactly the characteristics I described, and were different from his Harbeth in just the ways I'd described. So he found it extremely helpful. But it wasn't a case of pushing them, or advising "you should pay that much money for the speakers." That's up to the individual.



Personally, I believe advocacy of the DeVore speakers is unfounded. As I said before ... YMMV.

Jim

I hope you have seen that I'm not advocating for the Devore speakers, in the sense of saying anyone ought to buy them, but simply defending why some people, like myself, like them and would consider buying them.
 
One of the major points of DeVore critics is that they don't like the sound. I realize that you have stated several times that you do like the sound, but I believe that you are one member of a very small club, at least as far as the marketplace goes.

Speculative and hardly meaningful. We are all members of a very small group compared to the overall market for speakers, obviously.

I mean, take a representative sample of the relevant population, run a blind comparison between the average system (say, a soundbar on the wall) and these DeVores. Include a neutral reference speaker in the comparison to make it a three-way. And a range of program material. Get back to me with the percentages. I'd be interested in that.

Let me put it to you another way. I mentioned that there are thousands of people visiting this forum, looking for advice.

Would you advise them to purchase the DeVore speakers, and pay the DeVore price? What do you believe their reaction would be?

If they like the sonics and the aesthetics and they're within budget, obviously yes, consider them. If not, obviously no. Their reaction is none of my business (I don't sell speakers, or run an audio website).

Interesting that audience reaction is a thing for you though. :)
 
What about things like rent?
Employees training?
Workman's comp?
Design and engineering?

Alot more goes into a manufacturing company than just purchasing parts and putting it together.
Honestly I am not sure why the addition of parts is a topic of discussion here.

The very father of market economy, Adam Smith, said that pricing of anything in a market economy is about "perceived value". *NOT* cost of goods. The buyers decide what they perceive to be valuable to them. If you think anything priced above cost of goods is unethical, you are a communist. :) It totally undermines the value of innovation and value creation our Western economy is based on. Unfortunately, we are not vigilant about that, and that is why China is kicking our ass.
 
What about things like rent?
Employees training?
Workman's comp?
Design and engineering?

Alot more goes into a manufacturing company than just purchasing parts and putting it together.

There's a fair amount of back seat quarterbacking among some audiophiles "I know those drivers, and know something about speakers...I coulda done that, easy." Well...let's see you do it, turn out a successful product, with similar quality, at scale. Tons of fledgling audio companies never make it, started by DIYers who figured "I can do that" who didn't really grasp all the elements and costs required to make a business successful.
 
Honestly I am not sure why the addition of parts is a topic of discussion here.

The very father of market economy, Adam Smith, said that pricing of anything in a market economy is about "perceived value". *NOT* cost of goods. The buyers decide what they perceive to be valuable to them. If you think anything priced above cost of goods is unethical, you are a communist. :)
Add up the prices of the basic ingredients in a person and it will give you an idea of actual worth: 99% of the mass of the human body consists of six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. They are worth about $576. All the other elements taken together are worth only about $9 more.

Anything beyond that is worthless mark up.

;)
 
Honestly I am not sure why the addition of parts is a topic of discussion here.

The very father of market economy, Adam Smith, said that pricing of anything in a market economy is about "perceived value". *NOT* cost of goods. The buyers decide what they perceive to be valuable to them. If you think anything priced above cost of goods is unethical, you are a communist. :) It totally undermines the value of innovation and value creation our Western economy is based on. Unfortunately, we are not vigilant about that, and that is why China is kicking our ass.
I should add: if superior consumer products are based on cost of parts plus cheap labor... guess who had the advantage? Hint: It is not Western nations. So be extremely careful what you wish for. We have already screwed our Western manufacturing industry because that is so easy (yet stupid) to believe. And by falling into that trap, you give away expertise to those who shamelessly exploit their cost advantage in what basically amounts to sweat shops.
 
Add up the prices of the basic ingredients in a person and it will give you an idea of actual worth: 99% of the mass of the human body consists of six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. They are worth about $576. All the other elements taken together are worth only about $9 more.

Anything beyond that is worthless mark up.

;)
Probably far less in 3rd world nations. :-(
 
There's a fair amount of back seat quarterbacking among some audiophiles "I know those drivers, and know something about speakers...I coulda done that, easy." Well...let's see you do it, turn out a successful product, with similar quality, at scale. Tons of fledgling audio companies never make it, started by DIYers who figured "I can do that" who didn't really grasp all the elements and costs required to make a business successful.

Intentional mixed metaphor? I've never heard that one before.
 
Add up the prices of the basic ingredients in a person and it will give you an idea of actual worth: 99% of the mass of the human body consists of six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. They are worth about $576. All the other elements taken together are worth only about $9 more.

Anything beyond that is worthless mark up.

;)

How did you know that my net worth is $585??? ;)
 
Unfortunately, I have to admit that is a valid criticism.
Yea, but DeVore is a small time hustler.
Noel Lee of Monster and Bill Lowe of Audioquest really showed them all how to do it.
Then Ted Denny of Synergistic Research and Joe Reynolds of Nordost has raised it to an art-form. LOL
The biggest problem with giving any of these people credence is it stifles advancement in real High Fidelity development-improvement.
If fart box speakers like these where loudly exposed for what they are, and the demand in this industry turned to truly better, evidence
supported performance then all this snake-oil peddleing would come to an end and their efforts would have lead us to better gear.
It's been a quarter century since Peter Aczel wrote these words.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

I can tell you how it happened, it's happening here right now. People lending credence to the "sounds good to me" believer cult where it's become irrelevant if a product really sounds like the intended source.
It's been over 30 years since J. Gordon Holt said the exact same thing.

JA,"Do you still feel the high-end audio industry has lost its way in the manner you described 15 years ago?"

JGH, "Not in the same manner; there's no hope now. Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music.

Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement,
because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision."

But go ahead if it pleases you friends, just stop the bitching and moaning because the new Marantz Cinema 70 measured like crap.
You said it doesn't matter, so they didn't bother.
 
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Yea, but DeVore is a small time hustler.
Noel Lee of Monster and Bill Lowe of Audioquest really showed them all how to do it.
Then Ted Denny of Synergistic Research and Joe Reynolds of Nordost has raised it to an art-form. LOL
The biggest problem with giving any of these people credence is it stifles advancement in real High Fidelity development-improvement.
If fart box speakers like these where loudly exposed for what they are, and the demand in this industry turned to truly better, evidence
supported performance then all this snake-oil peddleing would come to an end and their efforts would have lead us to better gear.
It's been a quarter century since Peter Aczel wrote these words.

The comparison of speakers-you-don't-like with snake oil products that make impossible technical claims and which don't actually change the sound is ridiculous, and I'm sure you must know it Sal. This type of criticism is looking ever more desperate. "I don't like these speakers, they aren't what I'm looking for" would be more apt than this constant attempt to moralize and impugn a boutique speaker designer like Devore.

Cripes all mighty. It's amazing how some audiophiles can get worked up over a measurement graph with some squiggles in places they don't like.
 
I understand that, but to people who are scanning through our forum, defense constitutes advocacy. That's how outsiders look at it.

Jim

How does one express what one likes, without "constituting advocacy?" in this scheme?

Does that mean I shouldn't say I like a loudspeaker here, and why I like it? Nobody dare say anything nice about a non-ASR-approved loudspeaker, lest it corrupt naive onlookers?

Honestly: Not sure what lesson I'm supposed to take from this comment.
 
Yes it would reveal their sonic profile. But whether it would be easy to see what people find enjoyable about them, that's another thing.
Some people, yes. Others have a more strict criteria on "good and bad" speakers and would just write them off as 'bad sounding speakers.' Even when the O/96 stereophile review was put online, there were (objective-based) commentators railing against Stereophile for ever daring to recommend speakers that were such an incompetent train-wreck of a design.
I think you have a good point here.

Objectively good performance is easy to see. Nice smooth, straight lines all around is what we look for.

Objectively bad but subjectively good (or at least, sometimes euphonic) performance is harder to see, especially because directivity is often a mess in these situations.

So you have to mentally piece together where you'd want to hear boosts or cuts... net that out with resonances and PIR... and create some kind of mental image of what music might sound like put through that filter, and decide if it would be nice or not. That is extremely hard to do in a reliable way. Tuning an objectively bad speaker to sound good is possibly even easier done by ear than by measurement... probably why DeVore does it that way.

I feel like I could make a vague guess if you put a gun to my head, but finding diamonds in the rough by reading graphs is certainly "advanced topics" at best. Case in point, once in a while even Amir will listen to a speaker and report being pleasantly surprised after seeing some gnarly graphs.
 
The comparison of speakers-you-don't-like with snake oil products that make impossible technical claims and which don't actually change the sound is ridiculous, and I'm sure you must know it Sal. This type of criticism is looking ever more desperate. "I don't like these speakers, they aren't what I'm looking for" would be more apt than this constant attempt to moralize and impugn a boutique speaker designer like Devore.
That's bullshit Matt, your just ducking responsibility for your actions.
Neither Peter or Gordon even mentions cables., Hell they weren't even a thing back then.
It's the support of subjective "sounds good to me" attitudes that's killing HiFi progress.
 
That's bullshit Matt, your just ducking responsibility for your actions.
Neither Peter or Gordon even mentions cables., Hell they weren't even a thing back then.
It's the support of subjective "sounds good to me" attitudes that's killing HiFi progress.

LOL. Now I'm implicated in this dark moral scheme? Dang...I dared speak nicely of a speaker some on ASR don't approve of....

 
TLDNR but what is this, just about one subjectivist's opinion or multiple/group of subjectivists? :) Sorry if duplicate question :)
 
That's bullshit Matt, your just ducking responsibility for your actions.
Neither Peter or Gordon even mentions cables., Hell they weren't even a thing back then.
It's the support of subjective "sounds good to me" attitudes that's killing HiFi progress.
LOL!

Yeah, if John DeVore weren’t killing HiFi progress, maybe we could be streaming low rez 13.3 Atmos to use for watching TV by now.

Silly sushi eaters are ruining things for Waffle House.
 
I think you have a good point here.

Objectively good performance is easy to see. Nice smooth, straight lines all around is what we look for.

Objectively bad but subjectively good (or at least, sometimes euphonic) performance is harder to see, especially because directivity is often a mess in these situations.

So you have to mentally piece together where you'd want to hear boosts or cuts... net that out with resonances and PIR... and create some kind of mental image of what music might sound like put through that filter, and decide if it would be nice or not. That is extremely hard to do in a reliable way. Tuning an objectively bad speaker to sound good is possibly even easier done by ear than by measurement... probably why DeVore does it that way.

I feel like I could make a vague guess if you put a gun to my head, but finding diamonds in the rough by reading graphs is certainly "advanced topics" at best. Case in point, once in a while even Amir will listen to a speaker and report being pleasantly surprised after seeing some gnarly graphs.

Yeah, this brings in an issue I've mentioned before about the usefulness of speaker measurements.

Among the approaches are two somewhat different concerns regarding measurements:

1. Using measurement graphs as a way of deciding between the range of "good" and "bad" designs.

2. Using measurements to tell you what any particular speaker will sound like.

#1 is generally the approach taken here. And it's useful. You take a standard, with good engineering and evidence behind it, about what type of speaker curve/measurements "sound good" and you have those as your template to evaluate speakers against. Then you weed out "good" from "bad" designs against that template. And for the newbie it's easier too, because you can point to, say, the Harman curve and say "look for measurements like this, it will sound neutral and smooth in most rooms." You don't even have to know personally what the curve sounds like, you can just use it to end up with a speaker with those measurements...that sounds good.

But it's an entirely different ball game to move from "a speaker with this curve will sound good" to actually knowing what any particular speaker will sound like just by looking at the measurements. Because as we know speaker designs available to the public are all over the map, and can sound quite different in a myriad number of ways, for all sorts of reasons, on axis response, off axis response, resonance, and often various anomalies combined. THEN we are talking about having lots of personal experience correlating various precise measurements to their sonic consequences to predict what a speaker will sound like. And even people with tons of this experience still tell us it mostly gets one in the ballpark, and there can be some surprises in comparing listening impressions to some measurements.

So, all is fine and good IF the audiophile only cares about speakers that fit that certain paradigm declared as "measuring well." But IF you are an audiophile who really likes all type of speakers, and enjoys different presentations, that approach isn't enough. You either have to get REALLY good and experienced correlating measurements to speaker performance, or...you gotta go listen for yourself. And there can be a problem relying on what some more technically experienced people will say, because very often such folks have strong opinions about what is good or bad, and they will dismiss a speaker as "don't bother with this one" when it may well be a speaker you would really have enjoyed.

Personally, I can look at the measurements of a speaker like the Devore O/96 and get a general gist of some of the things I might hear. But I can not perfectly predict how all the frequency response/off axis behaviour/resonances will combine in the total sound in a specific room. Will that resonance bother me? it might. But it might not.
Upon hearing the O/96s, I got my answer: I found that all together, measurable idiosyncrasies and all, the sound was really compelling...transfixing even, for my taste.

There's a similar divide in the approach of the subjective rags like Stereophile vs ASR. Like the difference between 1 and 2 above. ASR will measure along a "good" or "bad" paradigm based on specific design/measurement goals. A mag like Stereophile attempts not so much to say "good" or "bad," but rather...there's a whole bunch of differing speaker designs out there, and THIS is how X speaker sounds, and THIS is how Y speaker sounds...and the reader can decide if they are the type of characteristics that would interest him/her. So, a wider...or another type...of audience. Yes, I know all the criticisms lobbed at subjective reviewers. But I'm glad there are both approaches available. The ASR approach works for many audiophiles, but so does the Stereophile approach for others, interested in speakers ASR would never approve of.
 
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