Subjective sound bokeh - interesting analogy.

[Chr1]

My feeling is that this analogy will only really be relevant to production of acoustic music. Once you are into the realms of electronics, and their potential range of effects on an audio signal, things get far more complicated.

 

[dualazmak]

The major difference between photo/video and audio is that audio is so hugely morphed by reproduction system and environment (speakers and room).

Yes, of course...

Now we can nicely share our digital photos, but it is impossible to exactly share my room acoustics and my audio listening sensation in my listening room,,, (even though we can share digital music tracks.)

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Hearing has a similar segmented perception. It is a misconception that all hearing is live without relation to previously heard sounds.
The precedence effect is based on that the brain, the temporal lobes, comparing with recently heard sounds and with sounds stored in the frontal lobes.
The localization of prominent sounds occurs in the brainstem and remains until a new prominent sound is identified.
The segmented hearings resolution is maximum 500 percepts/s (click sounds) but usually fewer.

Perhaps, changes in selectional attention to sound features, both subsconsciously, intentionally and stimulus triggered, contribute to the overall perception, especially in active listening

Neurophysiology is now mostly interested in hearing aids, obviously fundamentals are known well enough https://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/14/9/1309

This is, surely, a reflection of the dependence of research resources on funding, public or private. Before I retired, I made several efforts to interest colleagues in some of the issues you raise but cost constraints were always cited as why it was impossible.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

My feeling is that this analogy will only really be relevant to production of acoustic music. Once you are into the realms of electronics, and their potential range of effects on an audio signal, things get far more complicated.

Once the reference to acoustic music is removed, there are only aesthetic goals.

 

[pablolie]

Image bokeh is related to how the blur in the background of an image contributes to the overall perception of the image.
I get bad image bokeh from old 500/8 mirror telephoto lenses with round rings in blurry parts. Good bokeh is provided by my Canon 55/1.2 and 85/1.8.
The image is sharp in a significant part of the subject where blurry parts subjectively emphasize the overall image perception.

Sound bokeh is a subjective perception of the overall sound in a certain context.
Direct sound can to some extent be compared with the sharp focus area in the image. Perception of direct sound gets an additional dimension through reflections. Direct sound alone without reflections usually does not produce good sound.
Sound bokeh in different rooms varies with the mix of direct sound/reflections.
Bad sound bokeh is obtained in a long, narrow cave where the reflections are more than 12 dB stronger than the direct sound. Any speech is completely masked by the reflections and cannot be understood.
In ordinary listening rooms, the sound bokeh is usually half-good. The reflections do not highlight the direct sound optimally.
Optimal perceived sound bokeh is subjective and is often an adaptation process with elements of compromise. The adaptation process often wears off and the search for better sound bokeh often affects the hi-fi nerd.

Optimal sound bokeh is very dependent on the properties of the sound source and the room as well as your own subjective preferences.

Personally, I have had different optimal sound bokehs over the years.
Initially, my first stereo was a huge improvement, an enormous bokeh, compared to the family transistor radio.
Then came further bokeh improvements with horn speakers and the possibility of high sound volumes. Sound above 85 dB masks measurable distortion and gives subjectively lower distortion.
The tube amplifiers gave further sound bokeh lift with a softer sound. Masked 2nd/3rd distortion.
EQ gave even better sound bokeh with better bass below 300 Hz in the listningpositionen and linear frequency curve measured above 300 Hz in open field.
Dipoles gave further new bokeh improvements in the spatial experience through more optimal reflections.
Newly built big house with more optimal reflections where the lateral reflections were dominant (attenuated about 8 dB, delayed about 17 ms and similar frequency curve as the direct sound. Other reflections should be about 30 dB attenuated.(Barron, Toole, Olive, Lokki)
The characteristics of the reproduced sound are also crucial. Speech and dense music often give different good sound bokeh in a given system and room.

Objective measurement data often but not always correlate with good sound bokeh.
With the right choice of measured data, physics can improve perceived sound bokeh.

Be careful and proud of your own subjective sound bokeh in a given room.

Neuro

I love good bookeh in photography, but the idea of introducing/accepting blurriness in sound reproduction sounds horrible to me. The whole point is accuracy across the entire spectrum, 20-20k. A sharp picture end-to-end, set the lens to its sharpest f-stop, so to say. We want no blurriness in sound.

 

[FrantzM]

I love good bookeh in photography, but the idea of introducing/accepting blurriness in sound reproduction sounds horrible to me. The whole point is accuracy across the entires spectrum, 20-20k. A sharp picture end-to-end, set the lens to its sharpest f-stop, so to say. We want no blurriness in sound.

+1000.
I'd add that we need exactly the opposite in sound reproduction. We want the clearer, cleanest, sharpest purer, elements that make up the "sound", the music, the sound picture, with the least artifacts technologically feasible. Only then, can we choose to do whatever we want with this "original": We can "season" to taste, the tools being available, anyway.

 

[JeffS7444]

I'm also struggling to understand it in the context of reproduced sound: To me, it seems more like something which might be incorporated in a musical performance, such as silence/notes not played/negative space.

 

[pablolie]

+1000.
I'd add that we need exactly the opposite in sound reproduction. We want the clearer, cleanest, sharpest purer, elements that make up the "sound", the music, the sound picture, with the least artifacts technologically feasible. Only then, can we choose to do whatever we want with this "original": We can "season" to taste, the tools being available, anyway.

Absolutely! And we should also keep in mind the musicians and mixing engineers take care of any required "bookeh"... the band members ideally don't try to overpower each other, creating the mixes/images/nuances they want. When that isn't right the music is crap. Just yesterday I was listening to a live band. It seemed they had recruited Animal from the Muppet Show to play drums, guy was just hammering away and overpowering everybody to be center stage all the time - a horrible "bookeh", so to say. Kind of a Monet Lily painting with only a big piece of rat poop in sharp focus... :-D

 

[Chr1]

My guess is that the OP was referring to reverb and/or phase in the recording.

 

[FrantzM]

My guess is that the OP was referring to reverb and/or phase in the recording.

That is what a pure ,linear reproduction chain would preserve...

 

[Chr1]

Anechoic/headphones only surely?

There's a thread somewhere where people debate the pros and cons of room reverb, and whether there should be any... And if so, then how much.

My feeling is unless you are a recording engineer, it's a matter of taste.

 

[Neuro]

In healthcare field/aspects, you are partially right.

Spoiler

I have been working, doing research as Ph.D., in medical imaging fields for long years; CT, MRI, PET, SPECT, US, X-ray, endoscopy, etc. just like you have been doing the same; your avatar image tells it...

In art and photography world, however, "boké" and "boka-shi" (the state of being bokeh-ed) have no negative expression/sense at all; it is one of the nice aspects of Japanese arts and culture...

Mogard J, Kihlstrom L, Ericson K, et al. Recurrent tumor vs. radiation effects after gamma knife radiosurgery of intracerebral metastases: diagnosis with PET-FDG. J Comp Assist Tomogr. 1994;18:177–181

 

[FrantzM]

Anechoic/headphones only surely?

There's a thread somewhere where people debate the pros and cons of room reverb, and whether there should be any... And if so, then how much.

My feeling is unless you are a recording engineer, it's a matter of taste.

Hi

I believe that our notion of hearing and by extension of enjoyment of music is governed by the brain. The ear is a transducer and its output is to be processed by the brain so we can hear. The "room", the location within which we enjoy music, has an impact on said enjoyment. For many humans, sound is supposed to come from outside the ear. We, humans have always found ways to make the not natural or not ideal , liveable, even becoming the comfort or the "normal" e.g... our postures, our eating habits, our sedentary lives and the new fixation on screens ... or even our environment are not what our bodies were evolved toward or for .... So many of us, humans., have to come to make the headphones/earphones the prevalent way to listen to music .... I do not find that way to augment my enjoyment of music.. all the contrary, for me, I need music coming from speakers to fully enjoy any musical piece. Knowing what I know now, I wish l could remove the negative/deleterious aspects of the room, particularly in the bass but I need it be around .. absent silent if needs be , yet there, the sensation of music coming at me , rather than playing inside my head ...

Speakers are for me the better (natural? ) way to listen to music. It is also dawning on me that music in surround seems to be more interesting and realistic than in 2-channel... Apple is the culprit with its Atmos catalog ...

 

[Keith_W]

I love good bookeh in photography, but the idea of introducing/accepting blurriness in sound reproduction sounds horrible to me. The whole point is accuracy across the entire spectrum, 20-20k. A sharp picture end-to-end, set the lens to its sharpest f-stop, so to say. We want no blurriness in sound.

It's not the main direct sound that we want blurred, it's the reflections. In other words, we don't want specular reflections, we want diffuse reflections. It creates an ambience that we find pleasing. At least, that's what I take from what the OP meant.

 

[wwenze]

Where's the tsukkomi?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Bokeh is a camera and lens function. It’s the creative arsenal of the artist, not the one making the reproduction print to hang on your wall.

For me the analogy doesn’t work because if this.

Yeah, this analogy may be fun for camera enthusiasts (who doesn't like finding connections between otherwise disparate interests?), but it only makes sense if you're still laboring under old pre-objective conceptions of hi-fi, the audiophile's (self-flattering?) conceit that their equipment consumption choices themselves rise to the level of art.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

(if you want an analogy to bokeh that makes a little more sense, I think microphone placement in the recording space comes closer to the mark.)

 

[Mort]

At least it's not a car analogy.

 

[dlaloum]

I love good bookeh in photography, but the idea of introducing/accepting blurriness in sound reproduction sounds horrible to me. The whole point is accuracy across the entire spectrum, 20-20k. A sharp picture end-to-end, set the lens to its sharpest f-stop, so to say. We want no blurriness in sound.

And yet we prefer a certain amount of reflected sound in our systems, even though it somewhat "blurs" the pinpoint imaging created by the direct sound....

Pretty much no one likes to listen in an anechoic room with no reflections - which is what is required for perfect pinpoint sharp imaging to the max!

 

[dlaloum]

+1000.
I'd add that we need exactly the opposite in sound reproduction. We want the clearer, cleanest, sharpest purer, elements that make up the "sound", the music, the sound picture, with the least artifacts technologically feasible. Only then, can we choose to do whatever we want with this "original": We can "season" to taste, the tools being available, anyway.

So is your starting point, listening in an anechoic space?