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Xmech team

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I stated a simple fact and was avoiding getting into a subjective discussion

I really don't want to respond since it will lead to a long argument and dilute the whole point of this thread. But I still don't understand why you are still referring to it as a "fact." It's a suggestion that needs to be investigated (since you haven't told us your side of the story), but it is not a fact.

nobody in that world wants any audio problems to be solved

This seems like the main reason for persistent subjective reviews. It's like everyone wants the wheel to keep spinning for sales. I am sure there are better ways. Maybe they should start by claiming "neutral speakers are good, but I like it when Klipsch bumps up the mids," or "This record was garbage, don't play it with a revel speaker, get Golden Ear." That would create a whole new approach to reviews that don't try to disregard facts and label them as junk. My two cents though.
 

Ultrasonic

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I really don't want to respond since it will lead to a long argument and dilute the whole point of this thread. But I still don't understand why you are still referring to it as a "fact." It's a suggestion that needs to be investigated (since you haven't told us your side of the story), but it is not a fact.
Unless you're arguing that all of the measured differences in studio monitor performance that are published on this site are inaudible, it's a fact.

(I don't have extensive personal experience of listening to studio monitors and was not posting on the basis of such. Nor was I supporting subjective speaker reviews as being particularly useful by the way. But if subjective comparisons are going to be made I don't see your suggestion as being notably better than what happens currently.)
 
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Unless you're arguing that all of the measured differences in studio monitor performance that are published on this site are inaudible, it's a fact

I never said all measured differences, I said speakers that measure relatively neutral. Because there is a dB or two difference at specific frequencies in speakers, then they sound different, right? And because we can't prove that now, it's a fact?


Edit: Tell me how this speaker will sound different to this other speaker.

Also, for all others with slight bumps here and there, tell me how even EQ can't rectify them to sound similar?
 
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Ultrasonic

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I never said all measured differences, I said speakers that measure relatively neutral. Because there is a dB or two difference at specific frequencies in speakers, then they sound different, right? And because we can't prove that now, it's a fact?


Edit: Tell me how this speaker will sound different to this other speaker.

Also, for all others with slight bumps here and there, tell me how even EQ can't rectify them to sound similar?

All I said was the following, and very much as a coda to my main point. Which lest it be forgotten was that I don't think a studio monitor is the most useful reference for those who choose to read subjective reviews.

Also, studio monitors don't all sound the same anyway :).
 
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I don't think a studio monitor is the most useful reference for those who choose to read subjective reviews

We're on the same page now. In my opinion though (and with a lot of speculation), people might be willing to change if reviewers changed. Essentially, it's best to let the audience tell you "no we don't want a comparison with neutral speaker" after you have tried, rather than for reviewers to assume their audience don't want that.
 

MaxRockbin

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Wouldn't it be interesting to give reviewers a score based on their review's correlation with the ASR/Harmon scores?

Of course, scoring that correlation would probably have to be subjective...
But maybe there are some true golden ears out there. No machinery required!
 

PierreV

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Subjective reviews are product placement or (hopefully) well-written advertisements. Why would they bother with unnecessary baggage?
If subjective reviewers started making comparisons with a neutral target/source, they would become objective reviewers (possibly poor objective reviewers, but objective nonetheless).

I find subjective reviewers entertaining, especially when they are "moved to tears" by the holy lifting of the veil.
Objective reviewers, on the other hand, are no fun at all.

;-)
 

HeadDoc12

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Sadly, I think even subjective reviewers with the best of intentions are doomed to fail. It's been covered here many times before, but if a reviewer trashes anything close to half of what he reviews, companies will stop sending him their products. The companies want free publicity, nothing else. Here's a recent example: I like Michael Lavorgna. He is an entertaining writer, and has unusual taste in music; he doesn't use Diana Krall or the Eagles for his listening tests. However, in a recent review of the Totem Tribe Towers (https://twitteringmachines.com/review-totem-tribe-tower-speakers/), you can easily see how he is bending over backwards to give a positive review, or at least not a "this is a useless piece of garbage" review. The Totem Tribes are odd speakers, with some pretty ballsy claims to fame: tiny footprint, bass down to 30Hz, and placement agnostic (sound good anywhere from 4 inches to several feet from the wall!). While the review basically shows these claims to be false (obviously the speakers are small, but if you need 10 square feet of floor per speaker to get them to sound good...), he doesn't want to say that, exactly. So he tiptoes around its failings and acts like he is basically happy with the results. But these things cost US$5500 or more, depending on finish. There are MANY speakers in that price range (or half that) that are gonna wipe the floor with the Tribe Tower. They may take up a few more square inches of floor space, but otherwise will be better in every category. But if he said that, he'd be out of a job.
 
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Sadly, I think even subjective reviewers with the best of intentions are doomed to fail. It's been covered here many times before, but if a reviewer trashes anything close to half of what he reviews, companies will stop sending him their products. The companies want free publicity, nothing else. Here's a recent example: I like Michael Lavorgna. He is an entertaining writer, and has unusual taste in music; he doesn't use Diana Krall or the Eagles for his listening tests. However, in a recent review of the Totem Tribe Towers (https://twitteringmachines.com/review-totem-tribe-tower-speakers/), you can easily see how he is bending over backwards to give a positive review, or at least not a "this is a useless piece of garbage" review. The Totem Tribes are odd speakers, with some pretty ballsy claims to fame: tiny footprint, bass down to 30Hz, and placement agnostic (sound good anywhere from 4 inches to several feet from the wall!). While the review basically shows these claims to be false (obviously the speakers are small, but if you need 10 square feet of floor per speaker to get them to sound good...), he doesn't want to say that, exactly. So he tiptoes around its failings and acts like he is basically happy with the results. But these things cost US$5500 or more, depending on finish. There are MANY speakers in that price range (or half that) that are gonna wipe the floor with the Tribe Tower. They may take up a few more square inches of floor space, but otherwise will be better in every category. But if he said that, he'd be out of a job.

Many don't even depend on brands for free stuff. It's either they don't know or don't care
 
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