Sub-woofer - Monitor Integration/Crossover Questions...???...

[Synergist]

I am planning on purchasing a pair(2), of Rythmik Audio G-22 sub-woofers, (sealed, dual 12 in. drivers, 180 degree opposed/bipolar design), which possess significant set-up flexibility for integration with a pair of Audience Audio 1+1, crossover-free, bipolar monitors with bipolar, side firing passive radiators...

(I DO realize that the G-22's are OVERKILL for the Audience monitors, HOWEVER, ultimately, I plan on pairing the G-22 subs with a much more robust, pair of active monitors...("Adam Audio" "S" series monitors...)

As the "Audience Audio" "1+1" monitors are of a passive radiator design, which crossover slope should I use...24 dB./octave, or 12dB/oct....(IF my understanding is correct, the P.R. design acts like a ported design...suggesting a 24dB./oct. slope, however, IF that design acts more like a sealed system design, then perhaps a 12dB/oct. slope is more appropriate...?...

Furthermore, IF I used an ACTIVE crossover between my pre-amp and the 1+1 monitors, AND set the crossover significantly ABOVE the frequency where the woofer begins to "fall-off", would I avoid the potential sonic issues that even a VERY GOOD ported design can create, (i.e., essentially create a P.R.-design driver/monitor that BEHAVES like a sealed design in terms of frequencies output above the crossover frequency...???...and IF the woofer/cabinet BEHAVES like a sealed system, would I select a 12 dB./oct. slope, vs. a 12 dB./oct. slope...???...

Regarding integrating said sub-woofers to a pair of ported-design "Adam Audio" "S" series...be they the S2V OR S3V monitors, the lows of BOTH monitors' woofers fall off at 24 dB./oct., so that is understood...

Furthermore, IF I used an ACTIVE crossover between my pre-amp and the active monitors, AND set the crossover significantly ABOVE the frequency where the woofer begins to "fall-off", would I avoid the potential sonic issues that even a VERY GOOD ported design can generate, (i.e., essentially create a port-design woofer that BEHAVES like a sealed design in terms of frequencies output above the crossover frequency...???...and IF the woofer/cabinet BEHAVES like a sealed system, would I select a 12 dB./oct. slope, vs. a 12 dB./oct. slope...???...

Thank you in advance for your expertise/input...!...

Sincerely,
T.A.K.

 

[waynel]

With that kind of investment in subs, it pays to use a proper crossover + room correction. Look at the minidsp flex or SHD to see what fits in your system.

 

[Synergist]

Dear Waynel:

Thank you for your prompt response...!...

So, regarding sub-woofer/monitor integration, you would suggest an active crossover...(Understood)...so, IF so, would YOU suggest a digital active crossover OVER an analog active crossover, (i.e. a "JL Audio" CR-1, vs. an "S.P.L." Voltair crossover unit...?...)...

Though I already possess a decent outboard D/A converter, a "Schiit Audio" "Yggdrasil", SHOULD I purchase a pair of "matched" D/A converters, "Bifrosts" for instance, so that I can convert the digital outputs of the MiniDSP SHD Studio and send THOSE converted/analog signals to both my monitor amp. and/or active speakers, AND to my active subwoofers...?...

I am STILL wondering what would be an ideal crossover frequency AND slope for best integrating the sub-woofers with the monitors...
I appreciate your input!

Peace/Namaste,
T.A.K.

P.S. Should I assume that the MiniDSP SHD Studio would analyze the frequency output of the sub-woofers and monitors, and make/SUGGEST crossover points/slopes thereof...OR, must I STILL determine where to crossover, and the slope...???...

 

[Katji]

Yes, no analysis. Analysis done with software like Dirac, or you do it with REW [software]. + microphone.
miniDSP does a range of devices, some/most including the DAC.

 

[Jukka]

1) There is no such thing as too big speaker (for a small room). I use 14" stereo subs with 10"+1" horn loaded (DIY), all cabinets are sealed and the bottle neck are... the subs! Now I think I should have gotten dual 14" per side, although, if being reasonable, I would go deaf.

2) MiniDSP SHD or similar preamps with dsp and 4 channel output are a fantastic invention and should be basic pieces of all audio gear! You'll be able to set crossovers and experiment with them as you like, time-align, equalize and tune to your taste however you like. Don't forget to get a measurement microphone also, if you don't have one already.

3) For actual crossover I use 24 dB/oct. Linkwitz-Riley at 100 Hz for high and low pass and I'd suggest you start experimenting from there after you have time-aligned your speakers. With a dsp engine it's very easy to try different things, but the L-R filter is a good reference.

 

[FeddyLost]

I am STILL wondering what would be an ideal crossover frequency AND slope for best integrating the sub-woofers with the monitors...

It depends on your measurements of complete setup and preferences.
If you will make time aligned 2.2, you can go up to maybe 160 Hz if subwoofers are fast enough. Otherwise subwoofers typically crossed over at 80 Hz or below.
It will also depends on their responce in your room and distortion at required SPL. I think Audience 1+1 just can't manage someting like 160 Hz at 90 Db better than G22, while Adam S3V will play 80 Hz easily.
Personally I use 2.2 with 15" down-firing subs crossed at 120Hz 24 Db/oct.

 

[waynel]

Dear Waynel:

Thank you for your prompt response...!...

So, regarding sub-woofer/monitor integration, you would suggest an active crossover...(Understood)...so, IF so, would YOU suggest a digital active crossover OVER an analog active crossover, (i.e. a "JL Audio" CR-1, vs. an "S.P.L." Voltair crossover unit...?...)...

Though I already possess a decent outboard D/A converter, a "Schiit Audio" "Yggdrasil", SHOULD I purchase a pair of "matched" D/A converters, "Bifrosts" for instance, so that I can convert the digital outputs of the MiniDSP SHD Studio and send THOSE converted/analog signals to both my monitor amp. and/or active speakers, AND to my active subwoofers...?...

I am STILL wondering what would be an ideal crossover frequency AND slope for best integrating the sub-woofers with the monitors...
I appreciate your input!

Peace/Namaste,
T.A.K.

P.S. Should I assume that the MiniDSP SHD Studio would analyze the frequency output of the sub-woofers and monitors, and make/SUGGEST crossover points/slopes thereof...OR, must I STILL determine where to crossover, and the slope...???...

The units I suggested are digital crossovers and both have the option of using Dirac which can help you automatically do room correction. Both have the option of transparent DACs built in and both allow the option of using a pair of external DACs or one Okto DAC(you won’t hear any difference between the internal DACs and a top quality external dac). For most situations I recommend setting the crossover to 80hz (unless your speakers are very small) and using a 4th order linkwitz Riley .

 

[Synergist]

Dear Contributors/Suggestion/Advice Offer's:

THANK YOU so VERY much regarding your input, it is GREATLY appreciated...!...

It so happens that I ordered/received a "MiniDSP SHD" "Studio", (along with the recommended microphone), about two or possibly (!) THREE(?!) years ago...fully intending to replace my current "Schiit Audio" "Freya" (solid-state) pre-amplifier with the "SHD" unit...however, MY NOT being a computer/digital audio cognoscent guy, quite honestly, I was somewhat intimidated regarding the up-grade process...(additionally, I realized that I would have to either purchase another D/A converter, OR, utilize an existing one which was of a slightly different design from the "Yggdrasil" that I was/(and am) currently using...and I did not know IF "mixing" the two different D/A converters would be compatible...(so, due to my relative ignorance AND "cold feet", I chose to forgo upgrading my system...)... I have not even downloaded the Dirac software into the "SHD"...and hope that I can download the most current software version into my "SHD"... I am very unclear/unsure as to who to ask for assistance/direction...and would be very appreciative regarding any assistance with this, and my anticipated many additional questions...regarding this and installation/sub-woofer-monitor integration...

NOW, I FINALLY wish to make the upgrade...so, ANY, and ALL assistance would/WILL be VERY much appreciated!...

Thank You ALL!

Peace/Namaste/Sincerely,
Timothy A. Kogstrom

 

[Jukka]

SHD manual.

 

[MCH]

Synergist, there is a different model (minidsp SHD without the "studio") that has analogue outputs, so you don't need to deal with additional dacs, what would simplify things a little bit. But i am afraid the rest of the set up process would be the same.

SHD

Roon Ready network audio streamer with Dirac Live® room correction, miniDSP audio toolbox for subwoofer integration and multiway speakers, Volumio music player, Audiophile 32-bit converters, 450MHz Sharc DSP processor

www.minidsp.com

 

[Synergist]

Dear MarcosCH:

Thank you...I agree...the "SHD" model, (NON- "SHD" Studio" DOES include it's own D/A converter, however, would I not have to employ 2 D/A converters regardless, as I am splitting the sub-woofer frequencies from the upper base-mid-high frequencies anyway...Additionally, can A/D converter designs be mixed-matched WITHOUT functional/audible adverse effects...(do the digital clocks in two or more D/A converters functioning simultaneously on same original digital signal, (albeit split...) require some sort of digital clock synchronization???...

Sincerely,
T.A.K.

 

[MCH]

The minidsp shd (non studio) has all the Analogue to digital and digital to Analogue converters that you need built in, and they are of very high performance, you don't need to worry about that, and you don't need any additional converters. No worries about mix and match anything nor clocks or anything:

You can give to the SHD a normal 2 channel stereo signal (can be a digital or an analogue one), and the SHD will apply the crossovers and split the 2 channels into 4 channels that will go to your L and R main speakers and your two subs.

As it has multichannel digital to analogue converters built in, and it will give you 4 channels of analogue signals that you just need to connect to your amplifier and your subs.

Of course, you will need to program the crossovers and delays etc the same way as with your "studio" version.

 

[Synergist]

Dear MarcosCh:

Thank you for the clarification...

However, I already DO possess the MiniDSP "SHD" "Studio" pre-amp, so that I would in ALL likelihood pair that unit with a pair of D/A converters, (ONE of which is a "Schiit Audio" "Yggdrasil", (Multi-bit design), the sound of which I genuinely love...), so the question that I would like to ask is whether or not I can pair THAT D/A converter with perhaps another, similar conversion style D/A converter, a la the "Schiit Audio" "Bifrost"...or perhaps another, lesser grade D/A converter, say a "Schiit Audio" "Modi-Multi-bit",, AND/OR can I pair the "Yggdrasil" Multi-bit design D/A converter with a "delta-sigma" design D/A converter, such as a "Schiit Audio" "Modius" D/A converter...??...(thus, I would NOT need to purchase additional equipment, INCLUDING another MiniDSP SHD pre-amp...)

Thank You for your input!...

Sincerely,
T.A.Kogstrom

 

[MCH]

If you want to use the shd studio yes, you will need a second dac.
I believe it should not be a problem if you have the two dacs connected to the spdif outputs of the shd studio, provided that you adjust de delay accordingly. However i can not guide you as how to do it or what sort of second dac you need. Maybe others can help you.
Good luck!

 

[waynel]

Dear MarcosCh:

Thank you for the clarification...

However, I already DO possess the MiniDSP "SHD" "Studio" pre-amp, so that I would in ALL likelihood pair that unit with a pair of D/A converters, (ONE of which is a "Schiit Audio" "Yggdrasil", (Multi-bit design), the sound of which I genuinely love...), so the question that I would like to ask is whether or not I can pair THAT D/A converter with perhaps another, similar conversion style D/A converter, a la the "Schiit Audio" "Bifrost"...or perhaps another, lesser grade D/A converter, say a "Schiit Audio" "Modi-Multi-bit",, AND/OR can I pair the "Yggdrasil" Multi-bit design D/A converter with a "delta-sigma" design D/A converter, such as a "Schiit Audio" "Modius" D/A converter...??...(thus, I would NOT need to purchase additional equipment, INCLUDING another MiniDSP SHD pre-amp...)

Thank You for your input!...

Sincerely,
T.A.Kogstrom

No problem using a second DAC, If I were you I'd ditch the Ydddrasil as it's a very poor measuring DAC, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-and-review-of-schiit-yggdrasil-dac.2358/ and either get an Okto DAC8 pro(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/) or 2 well measuring DACs :

Soncoz LA-QXD1 Balanced DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the LA-QXD1 balanced (XLR) USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company. It costs US $199 and is already shipping in small quantities (I am told they will have a lot for sale in a week or two). The case on this DAC is quite high-end and not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California

www.schiit.com

You could start with one of these DACs first before deciding to ditch the Yggdrasil.

 

[Jukka]

I think you are over-thinking the issue, dear Synergist. It's not that critical and you can use almost whatever dac for subs, because ear is a lot less sensitive at those frequencies.