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Sub Upgrade: SVS PB10 to Rythmik LV12M

Diegs

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Had my SVS PB10 for almost 20 years and upgraditis set in hard this year. Started researching measurements of new subs and landed on the Rythmik LV12M. The SVS, HSU, and RSL are the others I researched seemed great as well. I watch movies and listen to music in my living room which led me to Rythmik. Measurement wise its should best my old SVS for movies and increase accuracy for music, win/win. My budget is $1000 and Rythmik seemed to be the best choice. RSL Speedwoofer was 2nd choice, but the 12” is a bit larger box. Anything else you would consider?
 
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SVS PB10 for almost 20 years
I didn't realize they were in business that long. Sure is time to upgrade.

I think one gets more bang for the buck with svs, but I much prefer the Rythmik for size and looks.
 
makes me feel really old that I had the same sub for nearly 20 years
:cool:
 
Had my SVS PB10 for almost 20 years and upgraditis set in hard this year. Started researching measurements of new subs and landed on the Rythmik LV12M. The SVS, HSU, and RSL are the others I researched seemed great as well. I watch movies and listen to music in my living room which led me to Rythmik. Measurement wise its should best my old SVS for movies and increase accuracy for music, win/win. My budget is $1000 and Rythmik seemed to be the best choice. RSL Speedwoofer was 2nd choice, but the 12” is a bit larger box. Anything else you would consider?
Smaller size will be F12-400 sealed sub. Though you may loose a bit of low frequency extension.
 
Had my SVS PB10 for almost 20 years and upgraditis set in hard this year. Started researching measurements of new subs and landed on the Rythmik LV12M. The SVS, HSU, and RSL are the others I researched seemed great as well. I watch movies and listen to music in my living room which led me to Rythmik. Measurement wise its should best my old SVS for movies and increase accuracy for music, win/win. My budget is $1000 and Rythmik seemed to be the best choice. RSL Speedwoofer was 2nd choice, but the 12” is a bit larger box. Anything else you would consider?
One thing to note about the Rythmik vs. RSL (and SVS) is that it has an analog input stage, no DSP, and introduces zero latency. The measurements of the Rythmik reflect the actual capacity of the sub, without processing. I have an F12SE, which I like a lot, and as I use Dirac, I preferred a sub without built in DSP so as to avoid excessive modifications to the original signal (by layering DSP on top of DSP) and eliminating another source of latency (though I have no idea if that has any practical import, reviews don't ever consider that issue, so far as I have seen.)
 
One thing to note about the Rythmik vs. RSL (and SVS) is that it has an analog input stage, no DSP, and introduces zero latency. The measurements of the Rythmik reflect the actual capacity of the sub, without processing. I have an F12SE, which I like a lot, and as I use Dirac, I preferred a sub without built in DSP so as to avoid excessive modifications to the original signal (by layering DSP on top of DSP) and eliminating another source of latency (though I have no idea if that has any practical import, reviews don't ever consider that issue, so far as I have seen.)
Solid point, never thought of that! I use DSP from a MiniDSP for the sub output. Up until this point I thought Rythmik not having a phone app or built in DSP was a big negative against it and almost pushed me to the SVS. The Signature Edition response and specs are amazing.
 
Got the Rythmik, but first updating the MiniDSP software / firmware. Then un combining the line out for the sub on the MiniDSP to use on the Rythmik left&right line in. The SVS only had 1 line in rca port. Pic of the Rythmik and SVS
 

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I have 4 Rythmik L12 subs. They are pretty fantastic.

My advice:

• If you have any thoughts of upgrading to stereo subs, save some money and buy just one L12 now. Once you’ve saved up, get the second.

It’s untrue that you can’t hear in stereo below 200Hz. Our ability to hear in stereo in the low bass region is less acute because of the longer wavelengths, but it’s not totally gone. Also, room acoustics do a lot to mangle up the phase integrity of low bass.

Don’t know what you’re main speakers are, but stereo subs also allow you to crossover your subs at a much higher frequency so you can take all the strain of producing low bass off of your mains which means they will sound a little better (no low bass rattling their cabinets).

Dual/stereo subs also offer better room integration and give you 3-6dB greater dynamic headroom. Oh, yeah, less distortion, too.

• If you can stretch that budget just a hair more and still want a single sub, Rythmik has the F12-400 which has a hair more power and uses their aluminum woofer. It offers somewhat better performance, but Brian Ding of Rythmik suggests that it be crossed over below 100Hz so that could be an issue.

You haven’t offered enough info for me to give you a definitive answer… you’ll have to figure this out, but any of the those Rythmik subs will give you great performance.

I prefer sealed subs to ported designs, because you’re sacrificing phase and group delay performance for greater output in the lowest octave with ported subs. While their absolute performance isn’t as accurate, they still sound good.

If you’re going to use only one sub, though, you will need to keep it somewhere in between the left and right channels.

All of these reasons are why I have 4 subs in stereo.
 
IMG_5736.jpeg
4 L12s subs must be a heck of an experience. I have toyed with the idea of left and right sealed subs with bookshelf speakers on top. Even thought of building something custom. Down the road I may give it a try.

So far the Rythmik is sounding really good with music. A good example is Estimated Profit by Grateful Dead sounds tighter and better integrated with the mains than the SVS did. Another example is Alice in Chains Down in a Hole live.

My living room setup:
MiniDSP SHD
VTV Purifi Eigentakt Stereo Amp
Monolith T6 Towers
Rythmik LV12M

The mains have a high pass filter of 65hz and the Sub has a low pass filter of 70hz (both 18db butterworth). My placement options are limited and cannot get the sub in between the mains. Still playing around with the crossover setup
 
View attachment 5085834 L12s subs must be a heck of an experience. I have toyed with the idea of left and right sealed subs with bookshelf speakers on top. Even thought of building something custom. Down the road I may give it a try.

So far the Rythmik is sounding really good with music. A good example is Estimated Profit by Grateful Dead sounds tighter and better integrated with the mains than the SVS did. Another example is Alice in Chains Down in a Hole live.

My living room setup:
MiniDSP SHD
VTV Purifi Eigentakt Stereo Amp
Monolith T6 Towers
Rythmik LV12M

The mains have a high pass filter of 65hz and the Sub has a low pass filter of 70hz (both 18db butterworth). My placement options are limited and cannot get the sub in between the mains. Still playing around with the crossover setup
Yeah, the four L12’s sound incredible with everything, but playing one of my 5 string basses through the system is a religious experience. It’s not about the power, it’s the low distortion.

If you could get that sub centered, you’d have the option of crossing over the mains at a higher frequency and gain a few dBs of dynamic headroom.

Try this:
• Get some carpet foam, roll it up and plug the gigantic port on the back of the speakers. All it’s doing is polluting your room with low-mid frequency resonances. Having the sub means it no longer serves a purpose.

• Move the crossover up to 100Hz. The T6’s primary low frequency resonance is at 70Hz. You want to attenuate that.

• To accommodate that higher crossover, make the crossover slope at least 24dB/octave

• I believe the MiniDSP unit supports FIR crossover filters. Since you aren’t using your system for home theater duty, latency from the FIR filters isn’t an issue. With a “brick-wall” FIR filter, you can nudge the crossover up to 110-140Hz and eliminate any phase problems from the crossover (FIRs are linear phase). Your dynamic headroom will increase by at least 3dB. There is free software that can calculate the FIRs that you can then import into the MiniDSP control panel.

• If you’re using that turntable, it needs to be isolated from the resonances and vibrations the sub and speaker are causing in the rack:
• Auralex Isotone turntable platform
• Sorbothane hemispheres attached to the table’s feet

• I hope you’re using the LFE input on the sub

That’s my 2¢
 
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Thank you! I’m going to try out your suggestions with the plugging the mains and crossover adjustments! Never thought of doing that, will be fun to try out. Also I’m using thick carpet pad for isolation now on both the turntable feet and stand, there were major skipping problems without it. Looking into the isolation products you recommended.

About the LFE input, I am not using it. I am using the line in left and right inputs on the sub from the MiniDSP. Is LFE is the better input to use?
 
Thank you! I’m going to try out your suggestions with the plugging the mains and crossover adjustments! Never thought of doing that, will be fun to try out. Also I’m using thick carpet pad for isolation now on both the turntable feet and stand, there were major skipping problems without it. Looking into the isolation products you recommended.

About the LFE input, I am not using it. I am using the line in left and right inputs on the sub from the MiniDSP. Is LFE is the better input to use?
The LFE bypasses the crossover circuit. Not better, but it allows you to do all of your adjustments in the SHD.

Check your manual: I’d think the SHD software does bass management so it should sum the L/R to mono for the sub. Then you can run a single cable to the LFE input.

The SHD offers crossover slopes as steep as 48dB/octave. Try using that and bump the crossover up to 150hz to get an idea what the FIR filters will do.

That will remove the octave above the T6s’ woofer resonance. The phase will be mucked up (somewhat audible, but not terrible). With that XO, the T6s will never break a sweat at any volume that won’t injure you.

Live with that a few days to re-acclimate your ears and fine tune your sub level. If you can’t localize the sub position, you’re good. If you can (which is unlikely, but possible), knock it down to 140Hz.

You’ll have increased the dynamic headroom of your system by about 6dB and reduced the distortion below 300Hz by something approaching an order of magnitude.

Just so you truly get what I’m on about, take an hour and do an experiment after a week:

• Play your favorite bass-heavy song at the loudest volume you’ll ever listen to. Walk over to the left T6 and put your hands on its side walls. Make a mental note of how much the cab is vibrating.

• Don’t change the volume! Now defeat the crossover, pull the foam plugs out of the ports, mute the subwoofer and play the same song again. Lay your hands on the T6s again. Note how much those speakers are vibrating now.

• If the T6s aren’t outputting quite as much low bass as when using the sub, go into the MiniDSP Control Panel and add a parametric EQ centered at 30Hz with a 2-3 octave width and turn it up until the low bass is comparable to what you were getting with the sub.

At this point, not only feel how much the T6 cabinet is vibrating, but also sit down and listen to a few songs.

Now, replace the port plugs, unmute the subwoofer, turn off the EQ and activate the 150Hz, 48dB/oct XO.

Play that first song again.

That is why you bought the sub. The improvement should be noticeable.

Forgot… when you use a sub, you eliminate Doppler distortion from your system. It also reduces IMD in the mid/bass region.

Get that free software to create the FIR crossover filters and you are done.

You’ll have to spend several times the cost of what you currently have to get any significant improvement.
 
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The LFE bypasses the crossover circuit. Not better, but it allows you to do all of your adjustments in the SHD.

Check your manual: I’d think the SHD software does bass management so it should sum the L/R to mono for the sub. Then you can run a single cable to the LFE input.

The SHD offers crossover slopes as steep as 48dB/octave. Try using that and bump the crossover up to 150hz to get an idea what the FIR filters will do.

That will remove the octave above the T6s’ woofer resonance. The phase will be mucked up (somewhat audible, but not terrible). With that XO, the T6s will never break a sweat at any volume that won’t injure you.

Live with that a few days to re-acclimate your ears and fine tune your sub level. If you can’t localize the sub position, you’re good. If you can (which is unlikely, but possible), knock it down to 140Hz.

You’ll have increased the dynamic headroom of your system by about 6dB and reduced the distortion below 300Hz by something approaching an order of magnitude.

Just so you truly get what I’m on about, take an hour and do an experiment after a week:

• Play your favorite bass-heavy song at the loudest volume you’ll ever listen to. Walk over to the left T6 and put your hands on its side walls. Make a mental note of how much the cab is vibrating.

• Don’t change the volume! Now defeat the crossover, pull the foam plugs out of the ports, mute the subwoofer and play the same song again. Lay your hands on the T6s again. Note how much those speakers are vibrating now.

• If the T6s aren’t outputting quite as much low bass as when using the sub, go into the MiniDSP Control Panel and add a parametric EQ centered at 30Hz with a 2-3 octave width and turn it up until the low bass is comparable to what you were getting with the sub.

At this point, not only feel how much the T6 cabinet is vibrating, but also sit down and listen to a few songs.

Now, replace the port plugs, unmute the subwoofer, turn off the EQ and activate the 150Hz, 48dB/oct XO.

Play that first song again.

That is why you bought the sub. The improvement should be noticeable.

Forgot… when you use a sub, you eliminate Doppler distortion from your system. It also reduces IMD in the mid/bass region.

Get that free software to create the FIR crossover filters and you are done.

You’ll have to spend several times the cost of what you currently have to get any significant improvement.
Thanks! Great tips and you are correct the SHD allows summing, I had it that way for my old sub with only 1 input and will try it out with the LFE. Also going to try out the plugging and XO adjustments. For my custom “theater” preset on the SHD I added 2db at the 30hz point. Also slight EQ on mids and highs based on Erin’s speaker measurements to flatten the response.

Ended up using a DIY turntable isolation solution with cork and a couple different foams. Cranking it and no vibrations making it to the turntable. Also heavy stepping around it not impacting.
IMG_5759.jpeg
 
Made the XO adjustments to 150hz @48db Butterworth on my preset 3. I was pretty certain that I would not like it, due to being ingrained that subs xo’d above 80hz would be localized.

Been doing A/B comparisons between my original 65hz/70hz XO vs the new 150hz XO. The 150hz sounds much much better on the low end, bass guitar and kick drums sound much clearer and less muddled. I can not localize the sub, which really surprised me.

One thing I noticed was energy from drum toms being a little less than I’d like. Doing comparisons between 150hz XO and full range mains and no sub confirmed this. So I may bump down the 150 til I hear what I like.

Will be spending more time listening and A/Bing between different XO settings. Thank you!

Original settings:
IMG_5774.jpeg

New settings:
IMG_5773.jpeg
 
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