Sub choice: Neumann KH 750 or Genelec 7050?

[Instrugramm]

I'm not sure if I should go with the Neumann or the Genelec for my Amphion One 15s. I don't plan on using DSP (since I don't have an Ipad), I've heard that the Neumann sub does convert the analog signal into digital and back and that the internal DAC does actually apply a slight roll of at the higher frequencies. The KH750 does however offer 19hz playback (as opposed to 24hz on the 7050s), some tweakability on the back plate and is newer than the Genelec.

How would you choose?

 

[Moonhead]

8 vs 10, go with Neumann.

 

[Χ Ξ Σ]

The KH750 is bigger and goes deeper. However, if you don't plan on using the built-in DSP then neither is a good choice. You can easily find bigger subs at a similar price.

 

[Moonhead]

But why go bigger when KH750 goes to 18hz, is that not below what we are able to hear anyways.

 

[Lero]

But why go bigger when KH750 goes to 18hz, is that not below what we are able to hear anyways.

you can hear down to more than 20hz if you have enough power, of course just one sub is not enough but most important is what you can feel in terms of room pressure and slams on your body, even the floor can make an enjoyable vibration.

 

[Koeitje]

you can hear down to more than 20hz if you have enough power, of course just one sub is not enough but most important is what you can feel in terms of room pressure and slams on your body, even the floor can make an enjoyable vibration.

I doubt you hear it with more SPL.

But why go bigger when KH750 goes to 18hz, is that not below what we are able to hear anyways.

I don't know the specs of these two subs, but its more about how loud it can go at 18hz and at what distortion levels. Bigger woofers generally play louder with less distortion.

 

[FrantzM]

The KH750 is bigger and goes deeper. However, if you don't plan on using the built-in DSP then neither is a good choice. You can easily find bigger subs at a similar price.

+1
Neither seems to be a good choice if you're out of their ecosystem, i-e that you are not using their own speakers and DSP. Alternatives for less or same cash outlay are plentiful.
Example: You could buy a pair of SVS or Rythmik + some DSP + UMike-1 and .... after several hours of measuring and fiddling, ... be done

 

[Moonhead]

A tech lad I know prefer these BK to SVS and they are cheaper, but also from uk.

http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers.htm

 

[DJBonoBobo]

The new Sound & Recording magazine features a review and measurements of the KH 750 DSP (available as a PDF-download in german). One result you may find interesting: 10% THD at 20Hz at around 86 dB (1 meter, free field, full room (= no "roomgain", if i understand correctly, you can add a few usable dB due to floor and/or wall))

 

[Soundstage]

+1
Neither seems to be a good choice if you're out of their ecosystem, i-e that you are not using their own speakers and DSP. Alternatives for less or same cash outlay are plentiful.
Example: You could buy a pair of SVS or Rythmik + some DSP + UMike-1 and .... after several hours of measuring and fiddling, ... be done

Why is that? Is it possible for example to plug the Genelec subwoofer out to speakers amp and use their app to calibrate speakers that don't belong to the ecosystem? Or do you have to use the ecosystem's speakers?

 

[Vintage57]

The new Sound & Recording magazine features a review and measurements of the KH 750 DSP (available as a PDF-download in german). One result you may find interesting: 10% THD at 20Hz at around 86 dB (1 meter, free field, full room (= no "roomgain", if i understand correctly, you can add a few usable dB due to floor and/or wall))

could you provide the link to review
thanks

 

[DJBonoBobo]

could you provide the link to review
thanks

You can buy the PDF-version of the whole magazine in german here, if you want: https://www.soundandrecording.de/shop/sound-recording-01-2021/
Since it is a very good review (highest rating in all categories), i expect the review to show up for free some day, e.g. at neumann.com or at thomann.de. Maybe Sound & Recording will provide a shortened version for free, too, but right now AFAIK it is only available if you buy the magazine.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Why is that? Is it possible for example to plug the Genelec subwoofer out to speakers amp and use their app to calibrate speakers that don't belong to the ecosystem? Or do you have to use the ecosystem's speakers?

I would imagine that without a SAM speaker from Genelec their GLM system won't work properly, or probably at all, including non-SAM Genelecs.
The 7050, OTOH includes bass management but just passes through a low cut signal to the attached monitors. It doesn't manage the monitors which are attached to it.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I'm not sure if I should go with the Neumann or the Genelec for my Amphion One 15s. I don't plan on using DSP (since I don't have an Ipad), I've heard that the Neumann sub does convert the analog signal into digital and back and that the internal DAC does actually apply a slight roll of at the higher frequencies. The KH750 does however offer 19hz playback (as opposed to 24hz on the 7050s), some tweakability on the back plate and is newer than the Genelec.

How would you choose?

The KH750 has DSP built in to match other Neumann speakers.
They have several others which would be more suitable to use with non Neumann speakers.

 

[Instrugramm]

Thank you all for your answers!

Just to chime in why I didn't think about getting a bigger sub in the first place: I have a pretty small room, so positioning a big sub might be a bit of a challenge. The other reason would be because even a bigger sub rarely goes down to 19 hz and I'm worried that the bigger one will have problems keeping up with the rather small and punchy Amphion One 15s. That's also the reason why I didn't discard the 7050 right away, I mainly want to check the lower regions of my mixes (sporadically) and need something that will work fine with my speakers, it's all about dry/accurate bass not punch or entertainment. I also really need a function to bypass the sub (7050 has a pedal switch, 750 has a slider) since the amphions by themselves are great for mixing and I don't want to lose that ability by having the sub on constantly.

If the Dynaudio 18S had a bypass it would be a strong contender.
The Adam Audio Sub 10 Mk2 meets the criteria but only goes down to 25hz.

Any opinions on the Kali Audio WS-12?

 

[Instrugramm]

You can buy the PDF-version of the whole magazine in german here, if you want: https://www.soundandrecording.de/shop/sound-recording-01-2021/
Since it is a very good review (highest rating in all categories), i expect the review to show up for free some day, e.g. at neumann.com or at thomann.de. Maybe Sound & Recording will provide a shortened version for free, too, but right now AFAIK it is only available if you buy the magazine.

Danke, Bestbewertung in allen Kategorien?
Sounds rather nice... I'm currently really tempted to get the KH 750.

 

[richard12511]

But why go bigger when KH750 goes to 18hz, is that not below what we are able to hear anyways.

18Hz at what volume and distortion, though? Also, you can still feel subwoofer output below 18Hz, and it's awesome . More power also gives you more room for EQ, which is essential for bass frequencies. Because of that, bigger subs will not only play that 18Hz louder, but they'll do it with less distortion and be more neutral above that.

 

[richard12511]

Thank you all for your answers!

Just to chime in why I didn't think about getting a bigger sub in the first place: I have a pretty small room, so positioning a big sub might be a bit of a challenge. The other reason would be because even a bigger sub rarely goes down to 19 hz and I'm worried that the bigger one will have problems keeping up with the rather small and punchy Amphion One 15s. That's also the reason why I didn't discard the 7050 right away, I mainly want to check the lower regions of my mixes (sporadically) and need something that will work fine with my speakers, it's all about dry/accurate bass not punch or entertainment. I also really need a function to bypass the sub (7050 has a pedal switch, 750 has a slider) since the amphions by themselves are great for mixing and I don't want to lose that ability by having the sub on constantly.

If the Dynaudio 18S had a bypass it would be a strong contender.
The Adam Audio Sub 10 Mk2 meets the criteria but only goes down to 25hz.

Any opinions on the Kali Audio WS-12?

Small subwoofers being "faster" is a myth, and speed determines frequency. If anything a bigger sub will sound cleaner, as it will generally have less distortion. Only reason to avoid a larger sub is if you can't fit it, or you don't like the aesthetics of a box that large. Sonically, there are no disadvantages, only advantages. A bigger sub will likely be "dryer" and "tighter", as you'll have more headroom to EQ it to the response you want, and there will be less distortion.

I would look at HSU, Rythmik, SVS, and Monoprice at that price point. They all make subs with significantly better performance for the price. I know Monoprice provides balanced ins/outs, but not sure about the others.

 

[Instrugramm]

Small subwoofers being "faster" is a myth, and speed determines frequency. If anything a bigger sub will sound cleaner, as it will generally have less distortion. Only reason to avoid a larger sub is if you can't fit it, or you don't like the aesthetics of a box that large. Sonically, there are no disadvantages, only advantages. A bigger sub will likely be "dryer" and "tighter", as you'll have more headroom to EQ it to the response you want, and there will be less distortion.

I would look at HSU, Rythmik, SVS, and Monoprice at that price point. They all make subs with significantly better performance for the price. I know Monoprice provides balanced ins/outs, but not sure about the others.

Which sub of these brands has the least noise, since my setup is positioned in a nearfield environment. These brands are not listed in the registries of my usual studio gear providers, so I really have no idea about their models and spec.

 

[richard12511]

Which sub of these brands has the least noise, since my setup is positioned in a nearfield environment. These brands are not listed in the registries of my usual studio gear providers, so I really have no idea about their models and spec.

Many of these subs have been measured by databass, where you can find incredibly detailed measurements of every metric available, including the CEA2010 standard. As an example, here are those measurements for the Rythmik FV15HP. It's a 15" 600W ported subwoofer that is the same price as the 8" 130W Genelec subwoofer. It lacks balanced ins/outs though. If balanced connections are required, Erin at Erin's Audio Corner did a review of the 10", 12", and 15" Monoprice subs, which have balanced connections, and (imo) show price/performance that's equal to Rythmik. I actually couldn't find the review on his website, but below is the youtube video where he gos over all the CEA2010(and more) data

Erin's a very knowledgeable member here. His handle here is @hardisj , and he may be able to answer more specific questions about those subs. He also has a 12" Rythmik review on his site.

I'm not sure which of the other brands offer balanced ins and outs, as that's not something I really look for. Only brands I know for sure that have them are JTR and Monoprice, though JTRs cheapest sub is much more expensive.