Sub and Mains to larger full-range speaker

[Jimshoe]

First off – thanks for a fantastic site. After 35 years of having audio as a hobby it’s great to have found a forum that unites logic, science and evidence to music reproduction.

My journey has been from a Linn LP12 and stacks of Naim boxes to a Roon based system with a MiniDSP SHD feeding ATC SCM25a and an SVS subwoofer (up to 40Hz) all EQ’d with Dirac.

Room is 3.4m x 4m x 2.3m and my music taste is pretty varied but there is a definite bias to synth-based pop, EDM, techno etc. I do love deep controlled bass!

Whilst my system is pretty good, I increasingly feel it lacks a top to bottom coherence. I have some simple room treatment (acoustic panels to make it less live) but the system is in my living room which I don’t want it to look like a studio control room!

In REW it looks like this:

Not the best I grant you!

Reading the threads here I have begun to question that my ATCs are not as good as I thought and that other active monitors (Genelec, Neumann etc) may offer more. I am particularly interested in what moving to a bigger speaker and getting rid of the sub might offer. I feel that there may be benefits from a well-designed full-range speaker.

Right now I’m looking at the Neumann KH420 but the coaxial cardioid Genelec 8351B is fascinating (although about the ugliest thing I have ever seen)! I am planning to try both in my room.

I’d appreciate any thoughts/perspective from those more expert than me here.

Doug

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Is it intentional for your system to have Beats by Dre sound signature?

 

[Jimshoe]

Ouch!

Not at all

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

I would first look into why there is so much bass boost

 

[Jimshoe]

I agree it looks like there is a huge bass boost but in reality it does not sound that way. If I EQ the bass right back (so it looks good) the system sounds anaemic and thin.

I realise it might appear I like huge overblown bass - but that's actually far from the truth. I want bass I can hear start and stop but also go low. Boom drives me nuts!

I suspect there may be an error in my measuring process (UMIK mic into laptop)

 

[Eetu]

I agree it looks like there is a huge bass boost but in reality it does not sound that way. If I EQ the bass right back (so it looks good) the system sounds anaemic and thin.

I realise it might appear I like huge overblown bass - but that's actually far from the truth. I want bass I can hear start and stop but also go low. Boom drives me nuts!

I suspect there may be an error in my measuring process (UMIK mic into laptop)

Have you looked into room modes? For example, is your listening position close to the back wall? That could explain the 50hz peak

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=340&w=400&h=230&r60=0.6

 

[Jimshoe]

Yes, my listening position is close to the back wall - with comb filtering problems too.

I also generally listen at quite a low level - hence the bass is not perceived as the graph might suggest

 

[tomtoo]

@Jimshoe
"...Boom drives me nuts!.."

I accept, but you should also accept that this is somehow shown in the FR of your System.

 

[Jimshoe]

Actually, I think I may have uploaded the curve for one of my 'experimental' Dirac presets.

I can't reach the server where my REW data is right now but will check later

 

[Jimshoe]

This is the measured room in Dirac (before adjustment):

 

[Jimshoe]

The 40Hz peak is a room mode I think

 

[tomtoo]

That looks great!
A little too much in the deep. But overal great

 

[Eetu]

The 40Hz peak is a room mode I think

Looking a lot better! Yes, that could be the rear wall mode. If it's possible I would try and move the listening position 1-1,5m into the room (off the back wall).

 

[starless]

I am using SHD in a 2.2 system (2 subwoofers). I found the RoomSim module in REW to be really helpful in looking at the impact of listening position. In my case (where I can't change the listening position) I get a large peak at 27Hz (my room is 6m long hence the lower frequency).

I found that Dirac tended to over-correct the bass initially but then tried using the SHD's PEQ to tame the 27Hz peak. I then calibrated Dirac with the PEQ switched on and got a much better overall response.

What I have found to work best is to:
1. Measure Main and Subwoofer separately and use this to decide best crossover frequency.
2. Set crossover in SHD and measure main and subwoofer separately
3. Use REQ to generate filters for each main and subwoofer which fit overall response to target curve (with target curve incorporating desired crossover slope).
4. Export filters from REW and import into SHD.
5. Run a Dirac calibration.

 

[Jimshoe]

That looks great!
A little too much in the deep. But overal great

Thank you, apologies I think I skewed my post with the wrong graph above. I will try to find the 'post Dirac' REW curve. I applied an 8db in the bass Harmann curve in Dirac and rolled off te top a bit too

I am using SHD in a 2.2 system (2 subwoofers). I found the RoomSim module in REW to be really helpful in looking at the impact of listening position. In my case (where I can't change the listening position) I get a large peak at 27Hz (my room is 6m long hence the lower frequency).

I found that Dirac tended to over-correct the bass initially but then tried using the SHD's PEQ to tame the 27Hz peak. I then calibrated Dirac with the PEQ switched on and got a much better overall response.

What I have found to work best is to:
1. Measure Main and Subwoofer separately and use this to decide best crossover frequency.
2. Set crossover in SHD and measure main and subwoofer separately
3. Use REQ to generate filters for each main and subwoofer which fit overall response to target curve (with target curve incorporating desired crossover slope).
4. Export filters from REW and import into SHD.
5. Run a Dirac calibration.

Thanks, yes, this is the approach I took - well step 1 and 2 anyway. I will have a crack at your other steps

 

[Jimshoe]

Looking a lot better! Yes, that could be the rear wall mode. If it's possible I would try and move the listening position 1-1,5m into the room (off the back wall).

Oh! I'd love to! Sadly London property prices mean my flat isn't that big

 

[Jimshoe]

Really helpful guys - thank you.

I'm am however intrigued by the lack of love for ATC on here I'd like to understand this more. I'm not a fanboy - and indeed am really interested in what a more competent active monitor like the KH420 might bring.

 

[Eetu]

Oh! I'd love to! Sadly London property prices mean my flat isn't that big

Yeah, totally get that. Very few of us have the luxury of a dedicated listening room. I have a living room setup too and can't place everything optimally.

And no first-hand experience with ATC, can't comment on that.

 

[ernestcarl]

Looks pretty hot in the bass. Probably really great with movies, and lower volume listening with music.

At what volume do you listen often?

 

[starless]

Thank you, apologies I think I skewed my post with the wrong graph above. I will try to find the 'post Dirac' REW curve. I applied an 8db in the bass Harmann curve in Dirac and rolled off te top a bit too

Thanks, yes, this is the approach I took - well step 1 and 2 anyway. I will have a crack at your other steps

In case you make the same mistake as I did, when exporting filters from REW don't set the equaliser to 'MiniDSP-96K' - that only allows for up to 5 filters. The SHD can use up to 10 filters per channel - the correct equaliser to use is 'MiniDSP 2x4 HD' - this allows for up to 10 filters and also exports at the correct sampling rate (96KHz).