If I read this right, the outcome was 100% predictable. In sighted tests they usually all prefer the Strad. In a blind test it came in dead last. This is once again why sighted tests are totally useless. No matter how many people believe that something is better or worse, those beliefs have no effect on the blind test outcome.
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Study confirms superior sound of a Stradivari is due to the varnish
- Thread starter sgent
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I think the Strad's wood/treatment that accounts for it's signature sound. Mind you, that signature sound may not appeal to every musician.
Brass instruments tonal character comes down to the metal and its thickness. Thicker metal will impart a more mellow tone while a thinner choice will give a brighter tone. A jazz trumpet player will probably opt for a thinner gauge horn (Benge) while a symphony musician might go for a heavier piece (Conn or older Columbia).
Brass instruments tonal character comes down to the metal and its thickness. Thicker metal will impart a more mellow tone while a thinner choice will give a brighter tone. A jazz trumpet player will probably opt for a thinner gauge horn (Benge) while a symphony musician might go for a heavier piece (Conn or older Columbia).
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Blinding orchestra auditions increase female selection. Blinding wine labels gives California a win over France.
I'm sure there are other examples, but people (myself included) dupe themselves too easily with sighted testing.
In the audio world, I wish more magazines and reviews would accept blind tests and subjective scoring (5 for indistinguishable, 4 for distinguishable but not annoying, 3 for slightly annoying, 2 for annoying, 1 for very annoying). Science is not just about objective measurements.
I actually thought the varnish altered the accoustic signature of the instrument for a second 
dasdoing
Major Contributor
fun fact: Mr Strad wouldn't recognize any of his istruments today. they were all altered over the centuries.
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All serious comparative wine tastings are done blind. We repeated the Spurrier tasting in1977 to very different results.
Lots of stuff to unravel here.
First, one does not compare a classical musician to a painter or other visual artist, simply because they are at different points in the creativity process. The painter is more like the composer playing his own works--both the idea and the execution are part of the visual artist's expression.
A great musician playing music composed by someone else must connect to the composer's idea, and then add their own ideas on top of that. The instructions for reproduction are, in that sense, a guideline rather than a rule. I have been told by teachers that a skilled musician plays the correct pitch, at the correct time, at the correct loudness, and with the correct articulation. That's the starting point of good performance--a good musician starts as a skilled musician and goes on from there. The musician playing from written music is an interpreter more than a creator, like an actor. Both work from an inner voice--the perfect representation of the art as they interpret it.
Musicians find the instrument that allows them to express their inner voice most fluidly and with the least effort. Part of that is how the instrument feels in their hands, even when that feel has no objective effect on the sound produced. Tuba players like instruments that vibrate in their hands, even though such vibration does not affect the sound produced in any material way. For them, the instrument feels alive. The best tuba players don't need that, actually--they are laser-focused on the sound and product that reaches the audience. I think what makes them world-class performers, and not merely highly skilled, is how well they connect what they are doing to what the audience is perceiving, and not just what they perceive as performers, using all their senses. But I certainly appreciate the feel of a fine tuba even if the product I put out there is kind of sucky. That said, different instruments have different sounds, and that's why most tuba players have several instruments, so that they can tailor their sound to the situation.
Violins: I know a violin maker of high repute. He studied in Cremona, is fluent in Italian, and has been allowed to make very detailed measurements of real Strads, Guarneris, and Amatis. I don't just mean external measurements--he also measured the thickness of the parts at many places for instruments that had been disassembled during restoration. And he took extremely precise photographs so that he could go back and review measurements later. His conclusion is that everything is part of what makes a Strad a Strad, but that most of the influences are relatively minor. He includes the varnish in that list. (The varnish theory dates from the early 80's, at least.) What captured his interest were the asymmetries, particularly those that remained consistent over multiple instruments. His contention is that those asymmetries are fundamentally important--and he concludes that most modern instruments are too perfect. For example, the F holes in the body of Strad violins do not line up, and the thickness of the belly isn't as symmetrical as one would assume. Most assume this is the product of hand work, and it may be, but it may also be important to smoothing out the resonances in the instrument by lowering their Q.
He came back from Italy with a whole spruce tree of the correct species that he felled himself, taking advantage of his fluent Italian to make a deal with the landowner. He thinks that's a lifetime supply. Stradivarius made 14 variations on the violin in his career; my friend's goal, stated three decades ago (and I've lost touch since then, so I don't know where he stands on it now) was to make the 15th.
Rick "and then there's the bow" Denney
First, one does not compare a classical musician to a painter or other visual artist, simply because they are at different points in the creativity process. The painter is more like the composer playing his own works--both the idea and the execution are part of the visual artist's expression.
A great musician playing music composed by someone else must connect to the composer's idea, and then add their own ideas on top of that. The instructions for reproduction are, in that sense, a guideline rather than a rule. I have been told by teachers that a skilled musician plays the correct pitch, at the correct time, at the correct loudness, and with the correct articulation. That's the starting point of good performance--a good musician starts as a skilled musician and goes on from there. The musician playing from written music is an interpreter more than a creator, like an actor. Both work from an inner voice--the perfect representation of the art as they interpret it.
Musicians find the instrument that allows them to express their inner voice most fluidly and with the least effort. Part of that is how the instrument feels in their hands, even when that feel has no objective effect on the sound produced. Tuba players like instruments that vibrate in their hands, even though such vibration does not affect the sound produced in any material way. For them, the instrument feels alive. The best tuba players don't need that, actually--they are laser-focused on the sound and product that reaches the audience. I think what makes them world-class performers, and not merely highly skilled, is how well they connect what they are doing to what the audience is perceiving, and not just what they perceive as performers, using all their senses. But I certainly appreciate the feel of a fine tuba even if the product I put out there is kind of sucky. That said, different instruments have different sounds, and that's why most tuba players have several instruments, so that they can tailor their sound to the situation.
Violins: I know a violin maker of high repute. He studied in Cremona, is fluent in Italian, and has been allowed to make very detailed measurements of real Strads, Guarneris, and Amatis. I don't just mean external measurements--he also measured the thickness of the parts at many places for instruments that had been disassembled during restoration. And he took extremely precise photographs so that he could go back and review measurements later. His conclusion is that everything is part of what makes a Strad a Strad, but that most of the influences are relatively minor. He includes the varnish in that list. (The varnish theory dates from the early 80's, at least.) What captured his interest were the asymmetries, particularly those that remained consistent over multiple instruments. His contention is that those asymmetries are fundamentally important--and he concludes that most modern instruments are too perfect. For example, the F holes in the body of Strad violins do not line up, and the thickness of the belly isn't as symmetrical as one would assume. Most assume this is the product of hand work, and it may be, but it may also be important to smoothing out the resonances in the instrument by lowering their Q.
He came back from Italy with a whole spruce tree of the correct species that he felled himself, taking advantage of his fluent Italian to make a deal with the landowner. He thinks that's a lifetime supply. Stradivarius made 14 variations on the violin in his career; my friend's goal, stated three decades ago (and I've lost touch since then, so I don't know where he stands on it now) was to make the 15th.
Rick "and then there's the bow" Denney
In some ways, yes, but not so that the maker wouldn't recognize them. Most now are fitted with steel strings, which is certainly the biggest change. And they are tuned quite a bit higher than in the day, which means those strings are tighter and there is more stress on the neck. Many have probably had the fingerboards and nuts replaced. But the belly and back, etc., wouldn't be changed, and those are important in multiple ways, as I understand it.
Rick "think of it as a Stad interpretation of modern steel strings and A-440+ tuning" Denney
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Is this like the contention at one time by Ferrari that all their engines were hand built by one person. And that the shop manager could tell you which engine builder built an engine by listening to it once in the car. Maybe, maybe not, but it was never tested as to whether it was true or not.
Trying to separate the musician's perception from reality here would be impossible--the performer will always know what instrument is in his hands.
I heard a demonstration by a professional violinist of two violins made by my friend, one a Strad copy and one a Guarneri copy, each owned by brothers and made in succession (it takes my friend about a year to make a violin). We all could identify which was which when tested blind (played in an adjacent room where we would not see which instrument was being used). But, of course, it was not a double-blind test--the musician knew which was which and may have been biased. Though the differences were tonal more than technique. Same bow for both, which is important.
I can certainly tell the difference ten times out of ten between my two orchestral contrabass tubas when played by basically anybody. But those differences are hardly subtle to one with some training in that particular sound. But there's no confusion as to which one is in my lap at the time.
Rick "whether the differences are important to any given listener is a whole other question" Denney
JW001
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Why not get hundreds of VERY good fakes at a VERY good price?
https://www.lg.com/africa/tvs/lg-55EA8800
JayGilb
Major Contributor
Maybe someday they will unearth an advertisement from the late 1600's where the Stradivarius family took out a full page in a local daily scroll where they make claims about their superior varnish and how they freeze and thaw it just before application and then pump it though a specially drilled cypress wood die giving their instrument's sound a airy, yet warm presence.
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I don't believe that will fool me into thinking I'm looking at nice painting on canvas.
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Better still if they were prescient and advertise their violins are more analog like.
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To me, weird thing about some guitar fans is how they want to own a facsimile of a beat up, road worn instrument, for more money than a 'new' guitar. For example (below) you can buy a Gibson Firebird new for 4K, or the roughed up 'fake made to look like old model' for twice that.
Do modern violin makers do that sort of thing? Make a perfectly new violin look like a beat up model?
I think McIntosh should make a 1968 Grateful Dead MC2300 Commemorative Reissue amp. Beat up the metalwork with a hammer, scratch the lettering off the front, maybe break the glass on one of the meters, and then sell it for twice the price of one of their regular amps.
No.
In the tuba world, those who have the scratch will take their old instrument and restore it to far better than it was when new. But there are only a handful of instruments that have historical value because of who played them, and those are either still in use or otherwise out of circulation.
Rick “tubas aren’t cool” Denney
They make a repop of Willie Nelson's Trigger , and also a miniature if you don't play. LOL
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I really don't think that is right. I mean, everyone knows about the electric Stradivarius. But now we're talking tubas. What could be cooler than a beat up horn? And a very big one at that? I think it calls for experimentation. Amplified experimentation. How about a Meyers pickup running through an Echobrain peddle, or the MXR Eddie Van Halen flanger, into a Marshall stack? Would that work?
Below links to Yuiko Onishi (Senri Kawaguchi on drums) playing her amplified saxophone. I'm not sure she's big enough for a tuba. But it might be something she could work out. And that would even be better than cool.
Do they make pink tubas? Or purple?
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