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Study confirms superior sound of a Stradivari is due to the varnish

sgent

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Interesting (and detailed article) about the hunt for the Stradivariuse's unique sound, diving into blind listening tests, CT's, etc. I think the superior portion of the headline overstates the case though.

Study confirms superior sound of a Stradivari is due to the varnish | Ars Technic

Along with Andrea Amati and Andrea Guarneri, Antonio Stradivari dominated the so-called Golden Age of Violins (roughly 1660 to 1750), and the instruments they crafted remain the gold standard today in terms of acoustic quality. World-renowned cellist Yo-Yo Ma has long favored a Stradivarius instrument, as does violinist Joshua Bell. But scientists have been arguing for years about precisely why these instruments have such superior sound. A recent paper published in the journal Angewandte Chemie confirms a theory dating back to 2006: the secret lies in the chemicals used to soak the wood, most notably borax, zinc, copper, alum, and lime water.

I've written extensively about this topic in the past. The (perceived) unique sound can't just be due to the instrument's geometry, although Stradivari's geometrical approach did give us the violin's signature shape. One hypothesis is that Stradivari may have used Alpine spruce that grew during a period of uncommonly cold weather, which caused the annual growth rings to be closer together, making the wood abnormally dense. Another prevailing theory has to do with the varnish: namely, that Stradivari used an ingenious cocktail of honey, egg whites, and gum arabic from sub-Saharan trees—or perhaps salts or other chemicals.

Then again, the difference may be all in our heads. A player's instrument preference is highly subjective, and there's some evidence of so-called "psychoacoustics" at play: that is, we've become so awed by the name Stradivarius that it influences how we evaluate or respond to the sound of one of Stradivari's instruments.

In fact, a 2012 double-blind study of 21 experienced violinists found that most of the subjects preferred playing the newer instruments; the Stradivarius ranked last in their preferences. Most of them couldn't tell the difference between the old and new instruments, with no significant correlation between an instrument's age and its monetary value. "Rather than searching for the 'secret' of Stradivari, future research might best be focused on how violinists evaluate instruments, on which specific playing qualities are most important to them, and on how these qualities relate to measurable attributes of the instruments, whether old or new," the authors concluded.


(much more at link)
 

Fregly

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I get stuck at "21 experienced violinists". I wonder how much extra value in perception this set of people actually brought. Probably enough of them are not reliable as experts for a variety of reasons, and make the finding not worth much. I do not doubt wonderful and superior instruments are being made now though.
 
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sgent

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I get stuck at "21 experienced violinists". I wonder how much extra value in perception this set of people actually brought. Probably enough of them are not reliable as experts for a variety of reasons, and make the finding not worth much. I do not doubt wonderful and superior instruments are being made now though.

Maybe? One of the slides in @amirm 's recent videos compared various types of listeners, and musicians came in a distant second behind trained listeners. I mean, there's a certain "enrichment" to going to a Yo-Yo Ma concert and watching him play a 2 million dollars, 300yo instrument, but at least that study seems to say it's in my head -- and I wouldn't be shocked if that's the case. I doubt anyone would know the difference if he switched halfway through the concert to a world class modern instrument.
 

whyfi

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if he switched halfway through the concert to a world class modern instrument.
As we guitarists say, "the tone is in the fingers". No matter which instrument and amp you are playing, you sound like you.
Though that doesn't stop us from gear rolling and spinning myths about classic instruments and electronics that would humble the staunchest of subjective audiophiles.
 

DVDdoug

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Then again, the difference may be all in our heads. A player's instrument preference is highly subjective...

In fact, a 2012 double-blind study of 21 experienced violinists found that most of the subjects preferred playing the newer instruments; the Stradivarius ranked last in their preferences. Most of them couldn't tell the difference between the old and new...
To me, the ONLY surprising thing is that the Stradivarius ranked last. Otherwise I'd expect similar results with experienced listeners or conductors, etc.

I'll betcha' I couldn't tell the difference! :D :D :D

There's also a theory that violinists play better knowing they're playing a Stradivarius, but I don't buy that either. Any musician allowed to touch a Stradivarius is going to darn-skilled and consistent.

There also HAS to be SOME difference in different Stradivarius instruments.

...You could make an "identical" copy of the Mona Lisa and it wouldn't be worth much. ;)
 

RayDunzl

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Doodski

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DVDdoug

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As we guitarists say, "the tone is in the fingers". No matter which instrument and amp you are playing, you sound like you.
They REALLY say that???

Though that doesn't stop us from gear rolling and spinning myths about classic instruments and electronics that would humble the staunchest of subjective audiophiles.
That's more like what I'd expect... :D Guitar players seem to be very picky about their guitars (and pickups) and amps. Then they add all kinds of pedals & effects and totally change the sound. :D

...I heard a story once about a guitarist who had an "average rig". I forgot the details but Eric Clapton was there and he picked-up the guitar and it suddenly sounded GREAT, and it sounded like Eric Clapton!

I kind-of assume there is MORE difference in acoustic guitars?
 

DVDdoug

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What makes a fake so worthy?
It's a "famous copy". :D I've heard of situations like that when something made by a famous forger is more valuable than a regular fake.

that some experts questioned whether the real copy was hanging in the Louvre
Have you ever seen the movie The Freshman? :D "The Godfather" (Marlon Brando) has the real Mona Lisa in his house and when they press a button Mona Lisa by Dean Martin plays.
 

Sal1950

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Doodski

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Stupidity ;)
Seriously a person could have 150 loaded Harleys for that kinda cash. Just a example...lol.. Or perhaps a stable of muscle cars and a back yard smoke show asphalt strip for test drives. Just saying :D Priorities!
 

Sal1950

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Seriously a person could have 150 loaded Harleys for that kinda cash. Just a example...lol.. Or perhaps a stable of muscle cars and a back yard smoke show asphalt strip for test drives. Just saying :D Priorities!
Now your talkin !!!!
 

Blumlein 88

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What makes a fake so worthy?
Maybe @Sal1950 can relate to this stupid car analogy more.

What makes a fake so worthy?

Want to know what it is like to own, drive and enjoy a real 1960's Shelby Cobra, especially a 427 Cobra? Good luck with that, there are only a handful left and damned expensive they will be. Or better yet a Shelby Daytona coupe which they only ever made like 6 or something of them.

OTOH, people have made and do make very faithful replicas. Doing so isn't cheap so they can be very expensive, but still a fraction of the actual original in cost. And it lets at least a few hundred people instead of half a dozen experience having and driving one.

So if someone can fake a Mona Lisa to the point experts are hard pressed to know the difference that would be worth some substantial money to have one of your own to look at whenever you please. The Mona Lisa wouldn't be my first choice, but there are some impressionist works I'd pay a pretty fair amount to hang on my wall if a good enough fake were available. Do near perfect fakes devalue the originals? Probably so. I wonder what the original artist would think of the situation?
 

escksu

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Oh, interesting. The way they treat the wood. It does make sense.
 

escksu

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There's also a theory that violinists play better knowing they're playing a Stradivarius, but I don't buy that either. Any musician allowed to touch a Stradivarius is going to darn-skilled and consistent.

Psychological factor affects even the best professionals. The confidence you have in the equipment you are using greatly affects your performance. Perhaps the phrase putting your heart and soul into it could be applied here.

I have to say music is something thats alot more complex than just skill and consistency. Its more than getting the notes right, the musician's feeling and mood are crucial factors. I would say the ability to convey that feeling is the difference between good and a great one.
 

Sal1950

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So if someone can fake a Mona Lisa to the point experts are hard pressed to know the difference that would be worth some substantial money to have one of your own to look at whenever you please.
In that sense you have a point. Hard for me to relate as I see little value in these things. I see paintings etc selling for huge amounts of money that look like they were done by a 6 yo in art class. It's all so subjective and to me completely irrational?
 

escksu

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In that sense you have a point. Hard for me to relate as I see little value in these things. I see paintings etc selling for huge amounts of money that look like they were done by a 6 yo in art class. It's all so subjective and to me completely irrational?

As they said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, many things in this word is very subjective.
 

Sal1950

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Psychological factor affects even the best professionals
I'm sure for a musician at Yo Yo's level it may be as much about how the instrument feels when playing as much as anything. Only the man holding the bow and neck can detect these things, not something the audience will ever hear unless it does effect his ability to play?
 

Inner Space

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So if someone can fake a Mona Lisa to the point experts are hard pressed to know the difference that would be worth some substantial money to have one of your own to look at whenever you please. The Mona Lisa wouldn't be my first choice, but there are some impressionist works I'd pay a pretty fair amount to hang on my wall if a good enough fake were available. Do near perfect fakes devalue the originals? Probably so. I wonder what the original artist would think of the situation?

I have an artist friend, and we often talk about this. First, he does it himself. What keeps the lights on is copying pictures for rich folk who flit from house to house, with the original going in a safe as soon as their back is turned, and the copy being hung for decorative decorum's sake. (He says the only truly un-copyable artist is Piet Mondrian.)

Copies don't devalue the original, he feels - cf. the rare book market, where a natural hierarchy establishes itself, with first edition, first printing at the very top, and the millionth copy worth nothing.

I have a Cezanne forgery, that for years (about 100 years ago) hung in the Pasadena art gallery. It looks real to me.
 
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