Studio subwoofers - alternatives, measurements, recommendations

[q3cpma]

Oh okay, I understand now. Which active monitors did you purchase btw?

Genelec 8030C.

If you're adamant on using a studio subwoofer, I would look no further than the Genelec's, however, you should know that you could get far more subwoofer for your money.

Well, apart from those very attractive Dayton subs, none of these have balanced in and high passed balanced low level outs. But yeah, I do know that you pay a lot for quality in that market; the JBL LSR310S going for $299 at times in the US shows that the value thing isn't always one-sided, though.
The Genelec being indestructible and a nice, small analogue all-in-one solution is a bit too attractive for people with enough money, I guess.

I'll probably try my hand at a DIY sub once I've already secured a good one.

 

[LDKTA]

Genelec 8030C.

Well, apart from those very attractive Dayton subs, none of these have balanced in and high passed balanced low level outs. But yeah, I do know that you pay a lot for quality in that market; the JBL LSR310S going for $299 at times in the US shows that the value thing isn't always one-sided, though.
The Genelec being indestructible and a nice, small analogue all-in-one solution is a bit too attractive for people with enough money, I guess.

I'll probably try my hand at a DIY sub once I've already secured a good one.

DIY is the route I'd take as well if it isn't JTR or even PSA.

 

[richard12511]

Is there some quality that subs from Genelec have that typical ID subs don't? At over $1k, I'm looking at comparable offerings from Rythmik, and the Rythmik subs seem better in every way. Is there something I'm missing? Honest question.

 

[LTig]

So far, I'm considering:
* Genelec 7050C: the obvious choice when using the 8030; every box is ticked and the LSE technology is interesting. Sadly, I've heard some lone reports of port noise with the 7350A, which shares its body with it, and the maximum level is a bit low; most of their subwoofers also have a strangely low amplifier power. It has a longer warranty than other models, too.

Regarding strangely low amplifier power in Genelec subs: I asked the Genelc support the same question in 2006

just for my curiosity: why do the Genelec subwoofers have comparatively low power amplifiers compared to subwoofers sold by typical hifi companies? There you often find 500 to 1000W power amps even in subwoofers with a single 12 inch driver.

and got this as an answer:

3. Power amplifiers of Subwoofers:
Some physics and acoustical background infos first:
The most essential property of a subwoofer is its capacity to move air. Each doubling of SPL (+6dB) needs twice the displacement and this does not depend on the type of enclosure used.
If we need 50cm3 at 100Hz for 110dB SPL then we need 1250cm3 at 20Hz. Now, the two main types of enclosure are the closed and vented box. The system efficiency is proportional to the size of the box, so the smaller the box, the lower the efficiency, and so the higher the amplifier rating for given SPL output.
Hence, as you say, we see tiny boxes with 1000W amplifiers. Their output can be same as that of a larger box with a 100W amplifier.

In the Genelec LSE range of subwoofers the enclosure is made from a strip of sheet metal which is bent to a spiral. The vent is formed between the rounds of the strip and the vent length can be as long as needed and it is at the perimeter of the enclosure without acute angles. The ends are carefully formed for proper termination. The spiral is tightened between two thick flat panels which form the sides (or front and rear) of the enclosure. So, the LSE suwboofers have quite large internal volume keeping at the same time very reasonable outer dimensions with extremely high efficiency due to the very long curved port.

 

[LTig]

Genelec 8030C.

The 7050 should be more than sufficient. When I bought my sub for the K&H O300D which are similar in SPL capability to the 8050 (back then) the recommended Genelec sub was the 7070 which was too big and expensive. So I asked the Genelec support:

I'm planning to add a subwoofer to this setup and would like to know which model is sufficient. I do not plan to update the system to surround. I'd rather prefer a 7060B to a 7070 for reasons of place (the 7070 is too deep to be well integrated) and price, but I don't know if this is a problematic setup.​

and got this answer:

The 8050A is indeed the closest corresponding model in terms of SPL.​

So, as indicated in our Suggested System Setup ( http://www.genelec.com/products/selection.php) the right sub is the 7070A for a stereo system.​

However, and this is up to your application and use, you may use a smaller subwoofer if you reduce the input sensitivity of the O300D so that you have proper reproduction level match between subwoofer and speakers.You will have to do if you choose to use a 7060B. If you do not need the O300D at their maximum output level, this might be an option. The room volume is perfectly fine and can allocate both types of subwoofer.​

Well, apart from those very attractive Dayton subs, none of these have balanced in and high passed balanced low level outs. But yeah, I do know that you pay a lot for quality in that market; the JBL LSR310S going for $299 at times in the US shows that the value thing isn't always one-sided, though.

I would have recommended the JBL due to its price and features but I'm no longer sure about longevity, reading about JBLs QC problems lately. I'd rather try to get a used Genelec if a new one isn't an option. My 7060B performs flawless since 14 years.

The Genelec being indestructible and a nice, small analogue all-in-one solution is a bit too attractive for people with enough money, I guess.

Yep. Although I own a nice 5.1/7.1 AVP I still use the x-over in my 7060B to feed the K&H O300D. Just being too lazy to setup and measure the sub connected to the AVP.

 

[q3cpma]

Regarding strangely low amplifier power in Genelec subs: I asked the Genelc support the same question in 2006

and got this as an answer:

Thanks, always useful to hear it from the horse's mouth. I kind of expected the low amplifier power thing to be because the driver is only there to excite the enormous port.

 

[q3cpma]

Is there some quality that subs from Genelec have that typical ID subs don't? At over $1k, I'm looking at comparable offerings from Rythmik, and the Rythmik subs seem better in every way. Is there something I'm missing? Honest question.

I'd say reliability, but other than that, probably nothing, as far as sound quality goes. And as https://www.soundandvision.com/content/way-down-deep-i-genelec-hts6 said, Genelec is the one brand you can trust to really be autistic about every detail; they probably don't know how to spell "cut corners". And this feeling/reality is very reassuring.

And for any scientist/engineer, the construction is just very cool. This video,

, shows the interesting design.

 

[LTig]

I'd say reliability, but other than that, probably nothing, as far as sound quality goes. And as https://www.soundandvision.com/content/way-down-deep-i-genelec-hts6 said, Genelec is the one brand you can trust to really be autistic about every detail; they probably don't know how to spell "cut corners". And this feeling/reality is very reassuring.

That could be the reason why we won't see any cheap models by Genelec. They've built up a trust into their products and it's not wise to destroy this trust by selling unreliable or bad products. Building up trust takes a very long time, but you can loose it very fast.

 

[hyperplanar]

Is there some quality that subs from Genelec have that typical ID subs don't? At over $1k, I'm looking at comparable offerings from Rythmik, and the Rythmik subs seem better in every way. Is there something I'm missing? Honest question.

Nope, sounds about right. Unfortunately the studio subwoofer market is a bit of a captive one, since it's tough finding a home sub with balanced ins/outs and a crossover.

While I'm here I guess I'll chime in with my studio subwoofer experiences...

Presonus Temblor T10. The T10 had tremendous headroom as far as I remember, but I was disappointed in its early frequency rolloff of about 40 Hz, which is nowhere near the spec sheet's claim of 20 Hz. The build quality isn't particularly inspiring either, and the gain knob (with a range of -30 to 0 dB) is extremely touchy and nonlinear at the lower end of its range. Additionally, the crossover is only 12 dB/oct, and there are no phase controls other than a polarity inversion switch. I did some loopback testing thru the crossover--it's analog and was pretty clean even up to +19 dBu. The frequency response was pretty linear.

Neumann KH750. I did a close-mic measurement and can confirm its frequency response is linear to below 20 Hz, as Neumann specifies. The extension compared to the T10 is very noticeable and enjoyable--I have no trouble mixing the deepest 808s, etc anymore. There is a lot of headroom for nearfield listening >30 Hz, but you're definitely not going to get earth-shaking levels of subbass below that. My setup is in a very large open space, so no room gain for me though. Presumably the primary reason why this sub extends to below 20 Hz is to minimize group delay. I chose this sub rather than something from SVS/Rythmik because it was the simplest way to integrate room correction/phase linearization into my setup, but for the $1350 I spent, I certainly could have gotten much more sub from them. This sub runs at 48 KHz all the time, and digital inputs are ASRCed. The DAC's rolloff is a bit odd, with a 0.7 dB rolloff at 20 KHz. The distortion spectrum didn't look as clean as my Babyface's output either. However, I A/B tested the sub in bypass mode with the DAC of my Babyface Pro and realized I couldn't tell a difference other than the very slight HF rolloff.

Pretty sure the Genelec sub has more or less the same tradeoffs as the KH750. Basically it boils down to whether you're willing to run something like a miniDSP to integrate the sub and do room correction, or just pay the premium for the Genelec solution with less headroom.

 

[BigJim79]

Subwoofers are pretty simple devices. You could look to local companies that use known good drivers in closed boxes. BK Electronics in the UK advertises a few subwoofers with the excellent Peerless XLS or XXLS drivers. Their 12" one (similar to SVS SB12/SB2000) is listed as sold out, but the 10" version is available: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XLS200.htm

You might have a local maker that uses these drivers as well. Look for the bevel on the basket rim. There are other excellent drivers, but because of that unique bevel XLS/XXLS are the easiest to spot from the front at a glance.

As an alternative, are the Andrew Jones ELAC subs with their app available to you? The app is smarter than most. It uses your phone and is self calibrating. Drivers and cabinets are not beautiful but they work.

Lastly I would highly recommend keeping all signal processing outboard. Who knows what junk is stuffed on the back of a plate amp.

I myself have their Peerless 12", I believe it is a XLS400. It's absolutely brilliant, I got the side firing version and run it with a mix of Mission SX, LX and MX speakers. My dad was a bass player and he was literally gobsmacked at the quality of the bass it puts out. BK used to do seconds / blemished open box ones on eBay. You can speak to them, very friendly. Recommended.

 

[jhaider]

I myself have their Peerless 12", I believe it is a XLS400. It's absolutely brilliant, I got the side firing version and run it with a mix of Mission SX, LX and MX speakers. My dad was a bass player and he was literally gobsmacked at the quality of the bass it puts out. BK used to do seconds / blemished open box ones on eBay. You can speak to them, very friendly. Recommended.

To further illustrate how predictable and simple subwoofers are, the Genelec sub in the Yates series is essentially a quad of the same 12” woofer (may have a Genelec part number, and tweaked Thiele-Small parameters, but isn’t going to be substantially different) in a huge box with a huge port and lots of power.

 

[detlev24]

I can share some in room measured data on Dynaudio 18S. If it fits the budget and your requirements otherwise.

Please! If you could share measurements taken in front of both drivers: with a calibrated microphone centered on each woofer, one after the other, and within a 1-inch distance; to keep room-interactions as low as possible. Of course, with no EQ etc. applied.

I find the 18S quite interesting. The same amplifiers are used on the Core Sub; but with slightly updated woofers (don't know to what extent) - according to Dynaudio.

 

[LearningToSmile]

Somewhat late reply, but I've been looking at studio subwoofers myself, and was a bit frustrated with the availability of measurements. I was mostly interested in the Dynaudio 9S, as it was the cheapest studio subwoofer(around $900 locally) with satisfying low frequency extension, at least according to specifications. I did finally manage to find some, on the website of a Polish pro audio magazine, of all places.

Measurements with 50Hz/100Hz/150Hz low pass filter:

Distortion:

Waterfall plot:

Also while researching this particular subwoofer, I noticed something unusual: the Dynaudio website, as well as about 90% of online retailers carrying this sub list the weight at 10.5kg / 23.1lb. Which would make it quite the lightweight. But the above linked review, as well as select retailers, do list a weight of 18.4 kg /40.5 lbs. Which, while still not particularly overbuilt, certainly makes a lot more sense. Makes one wonder how much of the manufacturer data can really be trusted if errors as basic as incorrect physical weight of the unit happen.

Anyway, hope the measurements are of use to someone(keep in mind the measurement methodology was not provided in the article, and I'm not a regular reader of the magazine so I can't comment on accuracy. The review was overall very positive).

 

[Willem]

My first recommendation would be to go for two small subs rather than one bigger sub, for better in-room response over a wider area. Second, I would not disregard inbuilt crossovers and dsp, because the modern trick is to have dsp processing to strike the perfect dynamic balance between power and extension. My B&W sub was one of the first to have this, and it works very well: play more loudly and the extension is reigned in to avoid excessive distortion (however, the principal reason for choosing the B&W was its looks). In addition, my sub has quite sophisticated and precise settings for crossover frequency and slope. SVS also has such processing in many models. In my case, I added an Antimode 8033 to tame room modes, and I think this has been far more beneficial than worrying too much about the sub itself. As yet I run my main speakers full range, but I am planning to add an external high pass filter such as the Harrison Labs Fmods.

 

[headshake]

Dunno if they ship to France, but if you go DIY...

https://www.css-audio.com/online-store/Kits-c29751664

You just need some glue, clamps, and amp/plateamp. No stuffing needed.

 

[detlev24]

Somewhat late reply, but I've been looking at studio subwoofers myself, and was a bit frustrated with the availability of measurements. I was mostly interested in the Dynaudio 9S, as it was the cheapest studio subwoofer(around $900 locally) with satisfying low frequency extension, at least according to specifications. I did finally manage to find some, on the website of a Polish pro audio magazine, of all places.

Measurements with 50Hz/100Hz/150Hz low pass filter:
View attachment 71137

Distortion:
View attachment 71139
Waterfall plot:
View attachment 71140

Also while researching this particular subwoofer, I noticed something unusual: the Dynaudio website, as well as about 90% of online retailers carrying this sub list the weight at 10.5kg / 23.1lb. Which would make it quite the lightweight. But the above linked review, as well as select retailers, do list a weight of 18.4 kg /40.5 lbs. Which, while still not particularly overbuilt, certainly makes a lot more sense. Makes one wonder how much of the manufacturer data can really be trusted if errors as basic as incorrect physical weight of the unit happen.

Anyway, hope the measurements are of use to someone(keep in mind the measurement methodology was not provided in the article, and I'm not a regular reader of the magazine so I can't comment on accuracy. The review was overall very positive).

It is "a bit" hard to believe the measurements were taken at around 145 dB SPL [300 W Class-D amplifier / Dynaudio's rated max. SPL: 106 dB]. Furthermore, at this level, the single 9" driver shows only ~7% 3rd Harmonic distortion around 25 Hz... These values would make sense at (probably) max. 90 dB SPL.

Do I misread the graphs?

 

[thewas]

That just looks to no or wrong mic level calibration to me.

 

[Vini darko]

Velodyne are worth a slobbering session. They're French I think so tick the patriot box too

 

[Instrugramm]

Nope, sounds about right. Unfortunately the studio subwoofer market is a bit of a captive one, since it's tough finding a home sub with balanced ins/outs and a crossover.

While I'm here I guess I'll chime in with my studio subwoofer experiences...

Presonus Temblor T10. The T10 had tremendous headroom as far as I remember, but I was disappointed in its early frequency rolloff of about 40 Hz, which is nowhere near the spec sheet's claim of 20 Hz. The build quality isn't particularly inspiring either, and the gain knob (with a range of -30 to 0 dB) is extremely touchy and nonlinear at the lower end of its range. Additionally, the crossover is only 12 dB/oct, and there are no phase controls other than a polarity inversion switch. I did some loopback testing thru the crossover--it's analog and was pretty clean even up to +19 dBu. The frequency response was pretty linear.

Neumann KH750. I did a close-mic measurement and can confirm its frequency response is linear to below 20 Hz, as Neumann specifies. The extension compared to the T10 is very noticeable and enjoyable--I have no trouble mixing the deepest 808s, etc anymore. There is a lot of headroom for nearfield listening >30 Hz, but you're definitely not going to get earth-shaking levels of subbass below that. My setup is in a very large open space, so no room gain for me though. Presumably the primary reason why this sub extends to below 20 Hz is to minimize group delay. I chose this sub rather than something from SVS/Rythmik because it was the simplest way to integrate room correction/phase linearization into my setup, but for the $1350 I spent, I certainly could have gotten much more sub from them. This sub runs at 48 KHz all the time, and digital inputs are ASRCed. The DAC's rolloff is a bit odd, with a 0.7 dB rolloff at 20 KHz. The distortion spectrum didn't look as clean as my Babyface's output either. However, I A/B tested the sub in bypass mode with the DAC of my Babyface Pro and realized I couldn't tell a difference other than the very slight HF rolloff.

Pretty sure the Genelec sub has more or less the same tradeoffs as the KH750. Basically it boils down to whether you're willing to run something like a miniDSP to integrate the sub and do room correction, or just pay the premium for the Genelec solution with less headroom.

Does the (DAC) rolloff apply when using analog inputs as well?

 

[hyperplanar]

Does the (DAC) rolloff apply when using analog inputs as well?

Yes.