Studio Monitor Upgrade | Thoughts?

[chopin_guy88]

Idk if I'd look at focal at all, most of their speakers are just not competitive with stuff from genelec or nuemann, and that's coming from a musician and "audio engineer" (whatever people call it anymore, you have to basically be able to do everything these days) with plenty of years of experience mixing in both live and studio environments. In the studio I have owned all three brands in my own space and was able to understand their sound intimately. If you want to upgrade, you have to get something that doesn't have the problems your current speakers have which you probably aren't going to find with Focal. Their 3 ways are probably nice but don't consider that a "simpler" setup in terms of the sound you'll get. The larger woofer is still victim to the positional room interactions, which is why it's so important to be able to move your bass radiating speakers to the best spot which is basically never where the mid and treble are coming from.

EQ correction can be done anywhere, for non-daw applications I just load up my REQ generated filters in EQ APO, they're loaded into a config so I can turn it all off and back on with one click. For DAW work I just have the same filters running in a master bus EQ that I turn off before rendering. Not particularly difficult to generate your own corrections, and much cheaper and flexible to do so. Not locked to any hardware or software.

Mixing and matching subs with speaker brands is fine, really anything with xlr in and out with a hipass on the out is fine. I would highly advise two subs though if you can swing it, just way better bass integration in the room with two. Small rooms have very high orders of modal interactions in the bass so you really need as many bass radiators as you practically get or else it's null city.

Appreciate this feedback very much.

Seems that sticking with using a sub is the way to go. I could easily corner place a sub on the other side of the desk along that wall where the barn door is.

While the desk conversation is interesting - don't want to get sidetracked from the primary concern of getting speaker selection right this go around. As this will be an expensive upgrade from where I am now, and the Focals are only a couple of months old at this point.

 

[Penelinfi]

There is a desk there, desks present huge reflection issues, and issues are generally fairly consistent to the point that most monitors have very similar dip switch settings to help alleviate them.

Two totally different speakers, ones a genelec 8030c. Anyone with a desk setup who has measured is probably very familiar with the huge peak you get around 150hz. Try placing an absorber on the desk thick enough to catch that wave and still use the desk lol. Both speakers exhibit basically the same reflection issues from the desk, because you are after all effectively placing a boundary in front of them.


View attachment 383074

Here's my ole kh80's on another desk, not only do you get a bunch of reflections in the midbass, you also generally get them through the whole spectrum. You can see the "comb filtering" that happens from the desk here. It really trashes the stereo image.

View attachment 383075

Desks just suck for sound ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This video demonstrates what desks do and some things you can do to try and fix it, but ultimately the desk is going to hurt things, but where else are you going to put your mouse and keyboard?

I meant that they didn't have much in the way of "stuff" in the speaker-ear --reflection path--.
Meaning they could add absorber/angle because they aren't using the desk space there.

 

[Penelinfi]

Appreciate this feedback very much.

Seems that sticking with using a sub is the way to go. I could easily corner place a sub on the other side of the desk along that wall where the barn door is.

While the desk conversation is interesting - don't want to get sidetracked from the primary concern of getting speaker selection right this go around. As this will be an expensive upgrade from where I am now, and the Focals are only a couple of months old at this point.

Did you mention what you didn't like about the current monitors?

 

[chopin_guy88]

Did you mention what you didn't like about the current monitors?

Coming from the Alpha 50s (gen. 1) and iLoud MTMs - both of which were on my desk / nearfield next to the monitor previously - the Twins just don't have the soundstage & detail I was hoping for. Granted the Twins are located about 5.5-feet from me now as opposed to being less than an arm length right on the desk like before. I had a good experience previously with the Alpha 50s - hence why I gave the twins a shot...

 

[lowkeyoperations]

Step 1. Buy Dirac Live and a Umik Mic. Your room has no bass traps and a big desk. Before you can assess your monitors you really need to remove the room from the equation to some extent. Dirac can help with sub integration too. Once you can hear what your system actually sounds like, you can make decisions from there.

 

[Ktacos]

I meant that they didn't have much in the way of "stuff" in the speaker-ear --reflection path--.
Meaning they could add absorber/angle because they aren't using the desk space there.

I covered that, what kind of material do you think you can put on the desk to absorb 500hz and down issues and still use the desk? That's like a 4" absorber on the desk.

 

[Sal1950]

Coming from the Alpha 50s (gen. 1) and iLoud MTMs - both of which were on my desk / nearfield next to the monitor previously - the Twins just don't have the soundstage & detail I was hoping for. Granted the Twins are located about 5.5-feet from me now as opposed to being less than an arm length right on the desk like before. I had a good experience previously with the Alpha 50s - hence why I gave the twins a shot...

Dump the MTM's for nearfield desktops listening.
Try some Genelec point source designs.
JMHO

 

[Penelinfi]

I covered that, what kind of material do you think you can put on the desk to absorb 500hz and down issues and still use the desk? That's like a 4" absorber on the desk.

There are ways. There are other frequencies. If can afford piano and multi K speakers, can afford custom desk or mods.

Currently looks like 2 remotes on the desk that isn't in the keyboard and mouse area.

Also they already have 4 inch of space used up for drawers; could put storage somewhere else and use textile surface with absorber or just use textile surface with no "desk" underneath.

I have to wonder why there aren't many audio focused desks given all these reflections. Everyone goes minimalist except has empty desk space

 

[chopin_guy88]

Step 1. Buy Dirac Live and a Umik Mic. Your room has no bass traps and a big desk. Before you can assess your monitors you really need to remove the room from the equation to some extent. Dirac can help with sub integration too. Once you can hear what your system actually sounds like, you can make decisions from there.

I'm aware of Dirac, but there aren't any practical options with balanced inputs/outputs. Room correction options in that venue are either software based - I run two different computers: one for video editing and a Mac for music production - so software isn't practical. The only hardware based solutions being ARC Studio and Trinnov ($$$) - of course Genelec has GLM on DSP models and some Adams have the potential to integrate Sonarworks into their DSP.

Dump the MTM's for nearfield desktops listening.
Try some Genelec point source designs.
JMHO

Likely the route I'm going - I'm really leaning towards the 8050b with ARC Studio. I should add - I'll have to put them on the Genelec 8000-400 stands as they won't fit on the desk with the MacStudio and DAC on each side of the monitor. Though, with any luck, I'll be able to get them a bit closer to me as opposed to the current setup with the large Argosy stands.

There are ways. There are other frequencies. If can afford piano and multi K speakers, can afford custom desk or mods.

Currently looks like 2 remotes on the desk that isn't in the keyboard and mouse area.

Also they already have 4 inch of space used up for drawers; could put storage somewhere else and use textile surface with absorber or just use textile surface with no "desk" underneath.

I have to wonder why there aren't many audio focused desks given all these reflections. Everyone goes minimalist except has empty desk space

Making any assumptions that my goals align with your own based on the $$$ I might have in my room - well, are just that - assumptions.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

Dirac Live gives you two instances per licence. In your case with multiple workstations that would be pretty straightforward no?

 

[chopin_guy88]

Dirac Live gives you two instances per licence. In your case with multiple workstations that would be pretty straightforward no?

I see they do have a standalone application for Windows and MacOS - wasn't aware of that - thanks for highlighting that. I wonder what the latency is for the standalone application running in the background? I don't want a solution where I have to insert processing plugin into my master audio bus every time I'm working in Logic, Premiere, Audition, etc...

 

[Ktacos]

I don't want a solution where I have to insert processing plugin into my master audio bus every time I'm working in Logic, Premiere, Audition, etc...

Us pro's in the biz call them templates

 

[chopin_guy88]

Us pro's in the biz call them templates

Yes - fully aware of that - but after reading through the dirac thread on here and seeing a lot of the problem reports I think I'll steer clear. I love Dirac in home theater AVRs, but would much rather have a hardware solution on the output side of my DAC - which again really only leaves the ARC Studio or Trinnov.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

I see they do have a standalone application for Windows and MacOS - wasn't aware of that - thanks for highlighting that. I wonder what the latency is for the standalone application running in the background? I don't want a solution where I have to insert processing plugin into my master audio bus every time I'm working in Logic, Premiere, Audition, etc...

I’m on a Mac and use AudioHijack in my studio to insert “systemwide” plugins. That’s where I host the Dirac plugin so my DAW and any other playback source all run through it.

I don’t use Dirac live inside my Daw.

In my lounge room I use SoundSource in a similar way.

 

[Eric Natural]

my anecdote coming from a fellow prior Focal Alpha50.v1 user. I read the OP has a sub in his monitored space which I am super reluctant to add in my small hobby-studio for whatever reason.
I migrated a couple of months ago to the latest IKmultiARC vst into a set of 8" Fluid Audio coaxials. The ARC software inside Ableton works great but doesn't solve the issues of room completely, even after 27 measurements. Still some boom at ~ 50 cycles here. Using an EQ after the DSPvst seems counter-intuitive but mitigates the hump a little for the moment.
Best of luck

 

[Ktacos]

What's the plan when IK discontinues the studio in one way or another?

 

[chopin_guy88]

What's the plan when IK discontinues the studio in one way or another?

I wouldn't really concern myself with that right now seeing as how it was just released (Feb. 2024). At which point maybe I'd move to Trinnov; or perhaps they might have a more fiscally accessible option in the future. Also, maybe MiniDSP will have another balanced input option available down the road again that's Dirac enabled.

Another thing I like about the ARC Studio hardware solution - is running in natural phase mode the correction only introduces 1.4ms latency which is the lowest I've seen of any of these solutions (GLM & Sonarworks are higher - not sure about Trinnov).

 

[chopin_guy88]

Well the Focals are sold and gone, and I turn now to a decision on what to go with next.

Know I was talking about going with the Genelec 8050s but I'm just not sure (it's an old but solid design at this point) . So I'm also looking at the 8300 series hat have the built in DSP/GLM capability.

To refresh from the first page my room is: 14'w x 12'd and has 10' ceilings (photos in first post). With the monitors on stands behind the desk they are about 5.5' feet from me.

Genelec options / thought thus far:

8050 - 8" 2-way older design - well reviewed and solidly engineered - class a/b amps | 110dB 38Hz-20kHz (+/- 2dB) 31.7lbs $1,895/each

8350 - 8" 2-way with DSP/GLM - newer class d amps | 112dB 38Hz-20kHz (+/- 1.5dB) 28.2lbs $2,450/each

8340 - 6.5" 2-way with DSP/GLM - newer class d amp | 110dB 45Hz-20kHz (+/- 1.5dB) 18.5lbs $1,695/each

Based on these specs it seems that the 8340 is actually the best value of the bunch - less expensive than the analog 8050 (far less than the 8350) and plays to the same level as the 8050 except for 8Hz in bass extension (which is negligible - and only 2dB less output than the 8350).

Additionally with the 8340 it might be possible, budget wise, to also add the 7360 sub. Does this seem like the best bet?

 

[Sacha]

Yes - fully aware of that - but after reading through the dirac thread on here and seeing a lot of the problem reports I think I'll steer clear. I love Dirac in home theater AVRs, but would much rather have a hardware solution on the output side of my DAC - which again really only leaves the ARC Studio or Trinnov.

You can use Dirac with a hardware solution via MiniDSP - I used this with Amphions in the past and it worked great. Not as good as Trinnov but better than Sonarworks IMO.

 

[chopin_guy88]

You can use Dirac with a hardware solution via MiniDSP - I used this with Amphions in the past and it worked great. Not as good as Trinnov but better than Sonarworks IMO.

Thank you - I am aware of that - but they don't have any solution with balance audio i/o. So that's a no go for me.

Bump to the question in my post above - above as that's the pertinent one at this point.