Studio monitor speakers without hiss?

[anmpr1]

Maybe unit to unit variation? Again, at the low end, you don't expect too much. At the price of Genelecs, or even JBLs, which are a value proposition, one ought not have to deal with loudspeakers making their own music.

Also, the possibility of unit deterioration? I don't recall my el-cheapo Presonus making the noise they make now, when I bought them two years ago. But maybe I just didn't listen that closely. The thing with Presonus, if they go bad I'll throw them out and get something else. They'd have served their purpose. On the other hand, I'd be pretty irritated if my Genelecs went south, given what that company charges for (presumably) quality.

 

[wildgooselake]

Update on the Kali IN-5.

Dead silent starting from 30cm. I have the input gain on the monitors at around 15%.

At this input gain they're loud enough to be unhealthy for long listening. My audio interface output level is at +4dBu (which is the max balanced input of these monitors).

At higher gains, self noise is slightly higher, but still quite low. In the 50% middle setting (denoted as 0dB, idk what that's relative to), they're silent at 60-80cm away. At this gain SPL is so loud you would not have them closer than a couple meters away, so they are essentially dead silent at intended listening distance for any volume.

The sound is very nice as well, neutral and no trace of audible distortion. Subjectively I think they're great. For objective measurements, refer to "Erin's audio corner" review.

Very impressed and definitely keeping them as replacement for Focal Alphas.

 

[AnalogSteph]

At this input gain they're loud enough to be unhealthy for long listening. My audio interface output level is at +4dBu (which is the max balanced input of these monitors).

Nope, that's the nominal balanced input, at which 0 dB of gain should produce 97 dB SPL @ 1 m anechoic according to specs. Since max SPL is 115 dB peak, they should theoretically be able to take up to +22 dBu (how happy the input stage is at this point may be another matter). You may want to put this theory to the test with input gain dialed way down. (That's assuming, of course, that your interface's output level isn't also nominal. Usually they're given for 0 dBFS though. Values from +12 to +19 dBFS are common.)

 

[wildgooselake]

Nope, that's the nominal balanced input, at which 0 dB of gain should produce 97 dB SPL @ 1 m anechoic according to specs. Since max SPL is 115 dB peak, they should theoretically be able to take up to +22 dBu (how happy the input stage is at this point may be another matter). You may want to put this theory to the test with input gain dialed way down. (That's assuming, of course, that your interface's output level isn't also nominal. Usually they're given for 0 dBFS though. Values from +12 to +19 dBFS are common.)

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. I’m not sure at what point precisely it starts overloading, but going a bit higher than +4 introduces audible distortion. So I assume it’s not far from the reasonable maximum.

I don’t know if max SPL of the speaker is rated at 0dB input gain and maximum level of input signal, or max input gain with nominal input signal.

In any case the noise is so low that even at this input gain, I’m totally content.

 

[bud947]

Very true. In their defense though, for their use case, the JBLs have their well earned place. They're still by far the best accurate active speakers in their price range in terms of overall sound, if you have the space to place them 2+ meters away.

That's a bit easier to recommend than a passive set, since a lot of people (myself included) prefer to avoid the hassle of finding separate matching amps, as it's an entire world of its own.

Most "studio" amps (aka balanced XLR/TRS inputs) in a low enough price range, would be something like Alesis or Samson, and they're not particularly amazing.

Of course, for recreational listening, vintage hi-fi is nearly impossible to beat, and way less hissy. Depends on location of course, but where I live, some older nice ELACs or KEFs and a good vintage NAD amp can easily be found for 200-300$ all-in-all.

Very important to note though, that's only if you don't mind some colored frequency response with unbalanced RCA, and if a you find this process of finding amps and speakers and trying them out fun.

This was maybe true 3-5 years ago, but doesn't hold today. I have a presonus e8 xt that is dead silent at less than 50 cm (balanced input) while being probably more accurate than the JBLs. There are measurements of the Kali LP v2 with similar features...

 

[mightycicadalord]

I've heard several users complain about this.

 

[wildgooselake]

This was maybe true 3-5 years ago, but doesn't hold today. I have a presonus e8 xt that is dead silent at less than 50 cm (balanced input) while being probably more accurate than the JBLs. There are measurements of the Kali LP v2 with similar features...

Might be true! Haven’t heard either of those, but if Kali use a similar approach in LP v2 as they do in IN, I’m sure it’s way better.

 

[Somafunk]

No hiss from my new Dynaudio LYD 48’s, previously I had KRK G4 Rokit 7’s and they had audible hiss, not noticeable when music was played.

 

[bud947]

I've heard several users complain about this.

If I got the time I’ll post a video of my e8 XT. They are very silent. So are my eris sub8. All are using balanced inputs though.

But to be honest, my first pair of eris sub8 had those horrible “hum buzz” and I couldn’t live with them so I sent them back. I was afraid when getting the second pair it would be a conception issue but it turned out to be a QC issue. So don’t hesitate to return your presonus gear if you got “hum” you can’t get by.

 

[Muelli]

If I got the time I’ll post a video of my e8 XT. They are very silent. So are my eris sub8. All are using balanced inputs though.

But to be honest, my first pair of eris sub8 had those horrible “hum buzz” and I couldn’t live with them so I sent them back. I was afraid when getting the second pair it would be a conception issue but it turned out to be a QC issue. So don’t hesitate to return your presonus gear if you got “hum” you can’t get by.

I read a review at Thomann for the E8XT. The customer complained about audible humm from the EX7T.

He ordered a pair of E8XT and it seems the humm was absent or reduced to a point, where it is inaudible for his use case. Presonus might have adressed this issue for the EX8T in general or the recently produced batches.

 

[water6]

Recently got a pair of KH80 DSPs for nearfield desktop use in an apartment with no acoustic treatment, a little on the quiet side, but street noise and ventilation noise always audible.

Their hiss is clearly audible at 1m, with or without a source connected, at the most favorable settings (0 gain, 100dB output level (hisses less than 94dB)). Very distracting when listening at low levels. Only at ~>2.5m is it difficult to hear the hiss. Am quite disappointed, since that means the 20 dBA @ 10cm self-noise spec is wrong, because that implies 0 dBA at 1m?

Will be using them as room speakers instead, and will look for passive speakers for the desktop.

 

[AnalogSteph]

That's.. odd. The noise level has been verified by S&R, so clearly it was accurate at some point. I would take them to various spots in the apartment just to rule out local interference or something. What has Neumann support got to say on the matter?

Man, I sure hope these weren't hit by the bloody chip shortage, forcing a redesign with inferior components. The codec they are using, the CS42526, is showing as 0 stock at both Mouser and Digikey, so I hope Neumann has a good-sized stash of them. In fact, most anything Cirrus Logic of interest is showing with lead times of 28 weeks to a whole year. CS4272 reels even are up at 83 weeks (!).

 

[Χ Ξ Σ]

Recently got a pair of KH80 DSPs for nearfield desktop use in an apartment with no acoustic treatment, a little on the quiet side, but street noise and ventilation noise always audible.

Their hiss is clearly audible at 1m, with or without a source connected, at the most favorable settings (0 gain, 100dB output level (hisses less than 94dB)). Very distracting when listening at low levels. Only at ~>2.5m is it difficult to hear the hiss. Am quite disappointed, since that means the 20 dBA @ 10cm self-noise spec is wrong, because that implies 0 dBA at 1m?

Will be using them as room speakers instead, and will look for passive speakers for the desktop.

Why is 0 gain the "favorable setting"? I use -15dB input gain and 94dB output level and that is more than enough for nearfield desktop use. No hiss detected unless I put my ear next to the tweeter. Also I just tried the 0dB & 114dB settings and the hiss is still not bad. Maybe there is an issue with the electricity at your apartment, or you are getting group loop somehow? You might want to check whether the noise is coming from the midwoofer or the tweeter. If it is from the midwoofer then this is not hiss.

 

[Sancus]

Am quite disappointed, since that means the 20 dBA @ 10cm self-noise spec is wrong, because that implies 0 dBA at 1m?

My KH80s are all so quiet I can't hear anything unless I put my ear in the tweeter wave guide, even at night and in the most quiet part of my living space.

If they're making that much noise I'd contact Neumann support and see what they have to say about it.

 

[Webninja]

I’ll have to add that my KH80s are dead quiet. As suggested, contact Neumann, see what they say.

 

[water6]

Thanks for all the replies! I will contact Neumann support and post the results.

I would take them to various spots in the apartment just to rule out local interference or something.

I walked around the apartment holding them and could not hear any obvious changes. Also, turning various other devices (LED driver, chargers) on and off does not affect the hiss. Wrapping one of them up in aluminum foil, leaving a small hole for the tweeter also does not make a noticable change.

Why is 0 gain the "favorable setting"? I use -15dB input gain and 94dB output level and that is more than enough for nearfield desktop use. No hiss detected unless I put my ear next to the tweeter. Also I just tried the 0dB & 114dB settings and the hiss is still not bad. Maybe there is an issue with the electricity at your apartment, or you are getting group loop somehow? You might want to check whether the noise is coming from the midwoofer or the tweeter. If it is from the midwoofer then this is not hiss.

Oops, I didn't notice the minus sign in the gain control! Switching to -15dB reduces the hiss a little but, but it's still noticeable at 1m. I don't have anything that could measure the quality of the electricity in the apartment. I'll read up about ground loops, but for all tests the only thing connected to the was the power cord, and I tried different power outlets throughout the apartment.

The hiss comes almost entirely from the tweeter, but there's a weak lower hiss from the midwoofer if i put my ear ~2cm from the midwoofer grill. At ~15cm the midwoofer hiss is not audible anymore.

I did some more thorough testing, by putting a speaker in a random on/off state and then trying to guess the state. Single speaker at 94dB, -15dB gain, no input connected and the light covered. Speaker was set in a random on/off state by balancing the on/off rocker switch on a power strip in a middle position, covering it with a towel, then dropping (with eyes closed) a heavy object onto the rocker, and then covering the whole thing up with another towel so I couldn't see how the object fell (randomization was therefore not the best). All of this listening to loud brown noise with headphones so that the pop when the light on the KH80 changes from red to white isn't audible. Distance to speaker marked with a microphone stand, so that I never get closer to the speaker than the given distance. Table was covered with a towel so that there is no tabletop reflection from the speaker. Don't know the ambient noise in my apartment, but I've been in libraries that were quieter.

Null hypothesis: the hiss is not audible at the given distance.

At 220cm:

	Actually on	Actually off
Guessed on	11	9
Guessed off	6	8

p-value: 0.36: with a certainty of 95%, the null hypothesis cannot be rejected.

At 120cm:

	Actually on	Actually off
Guessed on	11	9
Guessed off	3	24

p-value: 0.0015: with a certainty of >99%, the null hypothesis can be rejected.

At 100cm:

	Actually on	Actually off
Guessed on	6	0
Guessed off	0	11

p-value 0.00008: with a certainty of >99.99%, the null hypothesis can be rejected.

 

[AnalogSteph]

That seems roughly 6 dB higher than it should be. The better of my K+H O110 is barely detectable at 0.5 m... that's about what I would normally be expecting.

 

[MeZoX]

I Have My KRK8G4's at -11dB and hiss is inaudible at 6 feet away , they are still pretty loud as I still listen to the full system monitors +subwoofer at -15 to -24 dB from My DAC volume

 

[mightycicadalord]

I made a comment that after a 1ft you can't hear 8030c hiss. Someone told me to get my ears checked, so I did. 33 years old, eustachian tube dysfunction in my left ear, got a spray to open it up. I wish they would have gone higher in frequency, but considering I've had no trouble identifying mix issues in the 10k-20k region, I think I'm good up there.

 

[JJB70]

I find most active speakers are fine at normal listening distance and when playing music the hiss is unnoticeable. But if you get close with them powered up and not playing it's quite normal to be able to detect some hiss. I tend to think that the advantages of a well integrated package outweigh some hiss which is a non-issue unless going looking for it. But I do think it raises an interesting question about noise and performance. The amplifiers installed in active speakers are generally pretty mediocre in terms of measured performance. This isn't such an issue as they should be well integrated with the speakers. However I think there should be some consistency. People deride amplifiers on the basis of measured performance if it isn't stellar, yet few of those taking a harsh line on the matter seem bothered with hiss which is audible in powered speakers if you look for it.