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Studio monitor speakers without hiss?

Nutul

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Weird... I own a pair of Presonus Eris 5XTs and a pair of Adam T5Vs, paired to my Eversolo DAC-Z8 (fed by a Pi4 with moOde) and they are all dead silent.
Well, volume maxed out on the DAC, I need to be something about 3 or 4 inches off the tweeters to hear some faint hiss; at one meter distance, actually "they are not there".
Maybe the Adam a little more hissier than the Presonus, but a split hair if so

I wouldn't expect that from the JBLs though...
 

MAB

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Weird... I own a pair of Presonus Eris 5XTs and a pair of Adam T5Vs, paired to my Eversolo DAC-Z8 (fed by a Pi4 with moOde) and they are all dead silent.
Well, volume maxed out on the DAC, I need to be something about 3 or 4 inches off the tweeters to hear some faint hiss; at one meter distance, actually "they are not there".
Maybe the Adam a little more hissier than the Presonus, but a split hair if so

I wouldn't expect that from the JBLs though...
The tweeter sensitivity of the JBL is likely a handicap for noise.
For example, I can measure and hear noise in a fairly high-efficiency Compression Driver, with even PuriFi and NCore amps, although I need to have my ear very close.
If I insert a passive filter, the noise becomes inaudible to me with extremely low noise amps like PuriFi or NCore. Even with the passive filter, the antique Aiwa integrated amp I tested has audible hiss, but it could be considered acceptable.

Efficient drivers will be much more susceptible to noise. To the extent that I can hear differences between amplifiers! A passive filter dramatically reduces the noise. This was all mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I thought I would demonstrate.
 

Nutul

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The tweeter sensitivity of the JBL is likely a handicap for noise.
For example, I can measure and hear noise in a fairly high-efficiency Compression Driver, with even PuriFi and NCore amps, although I need to have my ear very close.
If I insert a passive filter, the noise becomes inaudible to me with extremely low noise amps like PuriFi or NCore. Even with the passive filter, the antique Aiwa integrated amp I tested has audible hiss, but it could be considered acceptable.

Efficient drivers will be much more susceptible to noise. To the extent that I can hear differences between amplifiers! A passive filter dramatically reduces the noise. This was all mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I thought I would demonstrate.
Got it. I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread; though I will as the night lecture later today.
P.S.
I'm glad I possibly don't have as sensitive ears as you... :D
 
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MAB

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Got it. I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread; though I will as the night lecture later today.
P.S.
I'm glad I possibly don't have as sensitive ears as you... :D
It was only vaguely hinted at at the beginning of the thread; cheap amps, lack of passive network, etc. were mentioned.
I thought I would help out with some actual measurements to help put things in perspective. I did the noise measurements since people get twisted up about distortion, and amp audibility. And also get torqued about active speakers. I really wanted to see the magnitude of the effect, and the impact of a passive network (which many don't use, likely for cost). And despite most people's inability to actually hear distortion, noise is actually quite easy to hear.

The takeaway: if you have an efficient tweeter (or midrange!), you will hear self-noise even with the most noise-free amplifier with no passive filter. With low-noise amps, that noise is probably so faint it isn't an issue. If you add a passive filter, the noise with such amps is not of human interest even if audible at extremely close range. Without the passive filter, higher noise amps become audible under normal listening positions with that high efficiency driver, and a passive can dramatically help - I was able to reduce noise by close to 10dB with the passive filter across a range of amp noise floors.

Also, I bet you can hear all of this, just need the test setup!
 

amanieux

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The tweeter sensitivity of the JBL is likely a handicap for noise.
For example, I can measure and hear noise in a fairly high-efficiency Compression Driver, with even PuriFi and NCore amps, although I need to have my ear very close.
If I insert a passive filter, the noise becomes inaudible to me with extremely low noise amps like PuriFi or NCore. Even with the passive filter, the antique Aiwa integrated amp I tested has audible hiss, but it could be considered acceptable.

Efficient drivers will be much more susceptible to noise. To the extent that I can hear differences between amplifiers! A passive filter dramatically reduces the noise. This was all mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I thought I would demonstrate.
passive filters wont help in the case of jbl 305 the hiss is coming from the super low quality internal class D amp, there is hiss even with audio cables unplugged.
 

Krit

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passive filters wont help in the case of jbl 305 the hiss is coming from the super low quality internal class D amp, there is hiss even with audio cables unplugged.
Just turn down gain to ~ 35% and it will be decent enough hiss level. It works for Kali Audio and JBL but for some reason not for all monitors......
 

amanieux

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Just turn down gain to ~ 35% and it will be decent enough hiss level. It works for Kali Audio and JBL but for some reason not for all monitors......
on my jbl 305 tweeter hiss is independant of gain, it is always there (unless i turn gain to 0), i have no hiss on my adam f7, there is a hiss list here at asr just look at it
 

amanieux

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Hmmm that's a first version not mkii ?
305p mk2, i am pretty sure all 305 have hiss but some user listen at 6 feet distance and at such distance the twitter hiss may be inaudible to many, i listen near field at 1.5 feet distance, but my adam f7 have zero hiss even at 1 inch distance
 

Randolf

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The root cause for idle hiss is always the amplifier (inside an active speaker or in front of a passive speaker) beeing used, which generates the noise. Unfortuntaley this residual noise of amplifiers is often not declared nor measured. Some manufactures like Yamaha often declare it:

A-960: 220uV (mode?)
A-590: 35uV (CD Direct), 90uV (Pure Direct)
R-N803D: 70uV (mode?)
R-N402D: 70uV

The noise typically comes from the preamp section and gets fully amplified by the follow up power amplifier regardless of the input and volume adjustment. Typically it can become an issue with high sensitivity speakers and/or near field listening. You can find some more details on my https://homeaudio.jimdofree.com/ in the "Amplifier hint" section. Some amplifiers like the R-N402D may even fool you, they mute itself when digital 0 is "played", but as soon as you start playing some music the hiss starts. I would really like to see residual noise measurement in amplifier reviews.
 

Krit

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I tested hiss noise with my iphone at about 5cm away from tweeters.

Kali audio IN-5 at stock 0dba gain equalls 41dba
Airpulse SM200 at stock 0dba gain equalls 38.5dba
Kali audio IN-5 when reducing gain to about 1/3 from 0dba equalls 35dba
Airpulse SM200 when reducing gain -10dba equalls 37.5dba

When reducing gain from stock 0dba Kali Audio get's a big improvement in hiss level and it's almost dead silent from one meter away, hiss from Airpulse is slightly hearable but not terrable. When turning to max gain or +6dba Kali IN-5 equalls (48dba) and Airpulse SM200 equalls (41dba).
 
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Krit

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Can somebody explain why active speakers with built in dac usually are quieter than studio monitors in terms off hiss ?

For example Edifier S350DB will be quieter than Focal ALPHA EVO, Mackie, Kali Audio....

Or Airpulse A100 will be quieter than Airpulse SM200....

Reason ? They both are active at the end..... :confused:
 
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dfuller

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Can somebody explain why active speakers with built in dac usually are quieter than studio monitors in terms off hiss ?

For example Edifier S350DB will be quieter than Focal ALPHA EVO, Mackie, Kali Audio....

Or Airpulse A100 will be quieter than Airpulse SM200....

Reason ? They both are active at the end..... :confused:
Whatever the self noise of the amps is really. Could be the higher power amps have a higher noise floor because there are more transistors paralleled. Could also be the preamp/crossover circuit is noisier.

However I think it's a mistake to say "all studio monitors are noisier" because that isn't true. My Neumanns are damn near silent, I have to be within 10cm to hear anything. My experience with ATC and Genelec is that they are also effectively noiseless.

Kali V2s are not super far off. The only Focals I interact with on a regular basis are Trio6 Bes and they're also very quiet.
 

Randolf

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I just noticed that Amir measured power on/off noise in recent amplifier reviews. In between there is the "idle noise", not sure but I guess that is the residual noise of the amplifier. I just looked up a few values of recent reviews:

Fosi Audio ZA3: 300uV
Yamaha R-S202: 500uV
AIYIMA A70: 130uV
Apollon NCx500ST: 40uV
Denon PMA-600NE: 460uV
Fosi Audio V3: 250uV
Topping LA 90: 13uV

The residual noise of the R-S202 is rated 70uV in the manual. That's exactly what the R-N402D is rated also, which to my impression has a far higher residual noise than the R-N803D (also rated 70uV by Yamaha). So there really seems to be something wrong with Yamaha's rating in more recent products. Anyway Amir's measurement might be a good hint whether to expect hiss from an amplifier with high sensitivity speakers or near field listening. Maybe Amir can comment on the exact measurement procedure. Of course we need to ensure that we don't just measure some auto mute of the device like it seems to exist in the R-N402D.
 

dfuller

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So there really seems to be something wrong with Yamaha's rating in more recent products.
May be they're A-weighting it.
 
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