Streamers. I don’t get it. Am I missing something?

[JustJones]

By 'streaming transport' I mean 'DAC-less' streamers such as the Lumin U2 and Auralic Aries series, not a network streamer. If there is no DAC inside what is left inside to impact sound quality?

Nothing unless they screw up something and inject noise or the software sucks. I had a Lumin U1 mini and I could never tell it apart from a raspberry pi4 ( not a blind test) using the same DAC. I will say I really liked the Lumin, it has a very nice and easy to use app, the volume control is good with small increments and if you are using monitors with AES3 110 Ohm inputs it's one of the few streamers to have that. But they are expensive some ridiculously so.

 

[Roland68]

By 'streaming transport' I mean 'DAC-less' streamers such as the Lumin U2 and Auralic Aries series, not a network streamer. If there is no DAC inside what is left inside to impact sound quality?

Theoretically nothing, and in practice there is no evidence of any difference in sound.
But every company/dealer that sells in such price ranges should provide their customers with a device to test so that they can get an impression for themselves.

Just test it yourself and you will have an experience that all the answers in all the forums in the world cannot give you.
Perhaps you should buy a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W beforehand and set it up with Volumio. To compare, you can activate the Volumio test license for 30 days with all functions and you will have the ultimate personal comparison.

 

[BDWoody]

By 'streaming transport' I mean 'DAC-less' streamers such as the Lumin U2 and Auralic Aries series, not a network streamer. If there is no DAC inside what is left inside to impact sound quality?

You are asking the questions more should be asking. The answer is moving digital files from place to place shouldn't impact sound quality, but the power of suggestion is strong enough that you can read of the vast improvements many will anecdotally claim. They paid thousands for a box, so of course it sounds better! You must be deaf if you can't hear it!

Same with special 'audiophile' network switches, special digital cables that can cost thousands, etc.

A little knowledge can go a long way in this industry to keep you from falling for these nonsense claims.

 

[Woody99]

Thanks guys, this is much clearer now. I was just looking to break down a streamer into its parts in order to understand where the 'added value' lies in a commercial streamer. That way it's much easier to decide whether to go cheap or expensive, standalone or integrated, DIY or commercial. If we're talking here about software on a small chip, my guess is that in the near future we will see 'streamers' built into just about all amps and they will live or die based on the success of the integration and usability of their interface.

 

[BDWoody]

If we're talking here about software on a small chip, my guess is that in the near future we will see 'streamers' built into just about all amps and they will live or die based on the success of the integration and usability of their interface.

My beloved but discontinued Chromecast Audio pucks sold for $15/each at the end of their run, yet are perfectly happy passing on a 'bit-perfect' digital signal to a DAC through mini-toslink, and they also had a quite decent DAC built in if you just wanted to connect to an analog input instead with RCA cables.

The electronics side of things is pretty well sorted overall. Focus on transducers (headphones, speakers, turntable cartridges), not the other stuff if you are looking for sound quality improvements.

 

[Woody99]

The electronics side of things is pretty well sorted overall. Focus on transducers (headphones, speakers, turntable cartridges), not the other stuff if you are looking for sound quality improvements.

Excellent advice, thank you!

 

[danadam]

I had a Lumin U1 mini and I could never tell it apart from a raspberry pi4 ( not a blind test) using the same DAC.

Would/could a blind test change that?

 

[JustJones]

Would/could a blind test change that?

Since I didn't compare in a blind test I can only guess and I doubt very much if it would. Neither the expensive Lumin nor the raspberry pi4 introduced any noise , hum, skipping or anything obviously audible like that. I never obsessed over it, when dealing with sending bits I just want it work so I never bothered with blind testing these things but on this site I like to add that to make it clear.

 

[MaxBuck]

By 'streaming transport' I mean 'DAC-less' streamers such as the Lumin U2 and Auralic Aries series, not a network streamer. If there is no DAC inside what is left inside to impact sound quality?

I operate my Bluesound NODE as a DAC-less streamer. It works very well in that service. It would probably work equally well, from a perceptible sound perspective, if I used it as a streamer with DAC, but that wasn't the question.

For me, the value of a streamer is primarily found in its user interface: how easily can I create playlists and how easily can I find new music I'll enjoy listening to. BluOS and Qobuz in combination provide those very satisfactorily. The SINAD if I don't bypass the DAC is pretty much meaningless in this evaluation, which is why Amir's evaluation of the thing didn't dissuade me from purchasing it.

 

[amix]

What advantage would a streamer bring? Is it purely so you don’t have to use a PC?

At least.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

As the starter of this thread, and for those who are unaware, I now use a WiiM Ultra Streamer.

It has to be said, I use it to stream, but mainly or its pre-amp/DAC/EQ and bass management abilities.

It's just far 'cleaner' to use than a PC for all those functions.

If it accepted USB out from a PC, I may well be using it for those functions, and still streaming from the PC. Maybe not; having everything in one box is extremely convenient. And it's so cheap.

 

[JeremyFife]

The Wiim Ultra may be convenient for you but it's certainly NOT "Cleaner" than a PC used with a quality DAC. That's absolutely false.

Hmmm

I read the original post as a comment on usability, hence the use of apostrophes, and note there was no mention of a DAC.

Having said that, I'd be very surprised if the WiiM Ultra was audibly less clean (in an electrical/audio sense) than a PC + DAC. There may be a measurable difference, but unlikely anything audible.

What did you mean?

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

The Wiim Ultra may be convenient for you but it's certainly NOT "Cleaner" than a PC used with a quality DAC. That's absolutely false.

I suspect the way I used the word is different to the way you’ve taken it.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

First you have to define "Cleaner".
1. Is it an audio measurement?
2. Is the poster trying to describe"usability" as you suggest?
3. Or has one been literally cleaned from dirt?

In all cases, I think the claim is false.
Using my PC with the RME ADI-2 DAC FS offers me much more usability than a Wiim ultra. It offers better measurements, higher quality, superior Loudness controls and a vast number of audio features not available on the Wiim. I much prefer a 13" screen to a tiny screen and I don't have to deal with RCA jacks that are too tight to get cables on/off. In addition, I am reading reports the Wiim may not always hold the same volume setting between on/off periods which could lead to tweeter damage and very loud moments in your life. Not a pre-amp feature I'm looking for.

If the buyer likes it I'm happy for him. But it's certainly not for everyone or "Cleaner".

Cleaner, as in it’s a smart-looking, easy-to-use, all-in-one box, which I turn on with one click.

The PC set up I had to turn on the PC, wait for it to boot up, turn on the DAC, turn on the amp.

I had to open the streaming app I was using, or media player for locally stored files. I had to open any EQ software.

When I turn on the Ultra, that replaces all of those separate jobs.

After that my phone is a fully-functioning remote I can use sitting anywhere, I’m not tied to a keyboard and mouse.

Cleaner. Much, much cleaner.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Hmmm

I read the original post as a comment on usability, hence the use of apostrophes, and note there was no mention of a DAC.

Having said that, I'd be very surprised if the WiiM Ultra was audibly less clean (in an electrical/audio sense) than a PC + DAC. There may be a measurable difference, but unlikely anything audible.

What did you mean?

Yes, usability. Sound-wise there should be no difference.

Apart from what is gained from having a sub out and bass management, obviously.

 

[Sokel]

In addition, I am reading reports the Wiim may not always hold the same volume setting between on/off periods which could lead to tweeter damage and very loud moments in your life. Not a pre-amp feature I'm looking for.

I was fast corrected at the Eversolo thread about its analog VC advantage over digital one (obviously) that there are zero reports about horror stories with Wiim.
Is what you say confirmed or a very isolated matter,user error or something?
I would expect Wiim (and everyone else) to have prioritize safe-guards about the utmost important matter.

I mean usual playback average voltage range with music in pre-amp level is 50-100mV,presenting a full 2 or 4V voltage is a nightmare.

 

[Stickler1]

What is a streamer for?

My music listening is almost entirely Amazon Music HD, for which I use the desktop app, and for the odd title not available there, I have my old (and extensive) CD collection ripped and in my NAS, which I play using WMP.

What advantage would a streamer bring? Is it purely so you don’t have to use a PC?

No it sounds better than a PC, which I used for years until I actually made the switch. If you don't wanna hear the improvement you won't.

 

[JeremyFife]

No it sounds better than a PC, which I used for years until I actually made the switch. If you don't wanna hear the improvement you won't.

Hmmm ... streaming is entirely in the digital domain ... very hard to see what could be done to improve the sound (better noise isolation? unlikely these days)
DSP is easier in the PC too.

 

[Stickler1]

Hmmm ... streaming is entirely in the digital domain ... very hard to see what could be done to improve the sound (better noise isolation? unlikely these days)
DSP is easier in the PC too.

Talk yourself out of trying it. Who cares?

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Using my PC with the RME ADI-2 DAC FS offers me much more usability than a Wiim ultra

Depends.

At 4X the cost (not counting the PC) for a single location.

I have Wiim in three rooms for around $300 total. With 10-band PEQ (each) and the option of simultaneously synced output and remote control anywhere in the house.

So, vast capabilities are in the ear of the beholder.