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strange SMSL M500 high 3rd harmonic

Jimbob54

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My guess.. the vast majority of M500 buyers will have never even heard of ASR and so didn't base there decision on Amir's recommendation.
This issue is a big thing in the ASR community. How many people will actually be aware of this issue from the total sales of the M500.. We have no way of knowing but my guess a rather small percentage.

Agreed- though word spreads especially with the Youtube reviewers. The Topping L30 issue went pretty wide with Zeos etc posting.
 

Toku

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Everyone should not have such expectations for SMSL.
They are active in communicating for sale, but do not respond to any communication after sale. Anything that is inconvenient for their company is ignored. This is, in a sense, a tradition of Chinese society.
 

chefffe

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They most certainly do not perform the same, they will measure differently. The far more important question is do they audibly sound the same and at what point do they start to differ. I don't know about you but my guess is that 99% of the people buy a DAC to listen to music, not to hook it up to an analyzer and stare at numbers all day. So who cares that one DAC performs better with a 6 points higher SINAD then another cheaper DAC when they are audibly indistinguishable from each other. Once you place the unit on your desk that 6 points of SINAD doesn't mean anything besides perhaps some bragging rights and the "peace of mind" that you bought the top of the chart DAC.

Amir reviewed 160 euro ish DACs and called then audibly transparant. Amir reviewed DACs way north of 600 euro and called then audibly transparant.
They don't preform the same but both are audibly transparant.

Why spend >400.. because one might be looking for specific features, a specific look or a specific designed chassis. All valid reasons.

What is not a valid reason IMHO is that one buys a >400 audibly transparant DAC for the sole reason/claims that is sounds better then a 200 DAC that is also audibly transparant.
There are for sure audible differences between DACs, as Vendors can adjust a lot of things and their experience makes the difference. Isnt it so that even using different parts and Layouts might make an audible difference? I bought now the good Loxije D30 and hear a difference but for sure its not worse sounding than SU9. If u have a DAC switch thats the only way to find out which one u prefer. Without direct comparing both sound great...
The point is still that they didnt deliver that great DAC like Amir tested. Call it psychology related but I had also paid for the great measurement results.
 

chefffe

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Everyone should not have such expectations for SMSL.
They are active in communicating for sale, but do not respond to any communication after sale. Anything that is inconvenient for their company is ignored. This is, in a sense, a tradition of Chinese society.
When they start claiming European device prices without support and warranty there will be a certain moment when their sales will drop. The Internet can be a bitch ;)
 

Veri

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There are for sure audible differences between DACs, as Vendors can adjust a lot of things and their experience makes the difference. Isnt it so that even using different parts and Layouts might make an audible difference?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-as-transparent-are-that-many-confused.9245/ 140 pages on this topic.

"For sure" ? No... You might want to follow this thread ;)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/blind-test-we-have-a-volunteer.23857
 

misterdog

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it's about getting what you paid for.

My M400 has less than linear output on the RCA.

Some were outraged.

Yet the XLR output has 2dB better SINAD , why would anyone seeking 'the best' use RCA ?

The full output on XLR at 5.3V has 5dB better SINAD than at 4V.

Some were outraged that the best SINAD is 5.3V.

Why would anyone not use the full 5.3V if the rest of their system were capable of coping ?


I suspect that some do not even know why they are outraged..

I'm outraged at the outrage.
 

misterdog

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When they start claiming European device prices without support and warranty there will be a certain moment when their sales will drop. The Internet can be a bitch ;)

Indeed, if people want a high SINAD DAC, without the outrage, the Mola Mola DAC is only 10K.

Your money, your choice.

People seem to want a 10K DAC for 300 and then be outraged - snowflake.
 

nhs

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My M400 has less than linear output on the RCA.

Some were outraged.

Yet the XLR output has 2dB better SINAD , why would anyone seeking 'the best' use RCA ?

The full output on XLR at 5.3V has 5dB better SINAD than at 4V.

Some were outraged that the best SINAD is 5.3V.

Why would anyone not use the full 5.3V if the rest of their system were capable of coping ?


I suspect that some do not even know why they are outraged..

I'm outraged at the outrage.
Indeed, if people want a high SINAD DAC, without the outrage, the Mola Mola DAC is only 10K.

Your money, your choice.

People seem to want a 10K DAC for 300 and then be outraged - snowflake.
Sorry, but your post is not belong to this thread. It seams to be you don't understand what the point here is.
 

misterdog

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Sorry, but your post is not belong to this thread. It seams to be you don't understand what the point here is.

The same outrage that was levelled at my my M400 for having less linear output on the RCA than the XLR.

And 'cooking' the figures for the SINAD at 5.3V out when 'we' expect 4.0V out.

Outrage is outrage, if you look closely enough you can always find some. ;)
 

MusicNBeer

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The same outrage that was levelled at my my M400 for having less linear output on the RCA than the XLR.

And 'cooking' the figures for the SINAD at 5.3V out when 'we' expect 4.0V out.

Outrage is outrage, if you look closely enough you can always find some. ;)
You seem clueless at understanding SCALE of problem. We are not talking about a couple dB degredation. The SU-9 and M500 are performing over 30 dB degraded relative to spec! SINAD of 70 dB is ATROCIOUS for any modern DAC. The two reviews should have headless panther.

Why in the world would you be defending this situation and response from SMSL? Do you work for them or something?
 

misterdog

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Yes they pay me a million dollars a year. You've sussed me. :oops:

I have never said there is no problem ,or that it doesn't need sorting out, however the SCALE of some of the language on here is out of proportion IMO.
 

kfscoll

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Yes they pay me a million dollars a year. You've sussed me. :oops:

I have never said there is no problem ,or that it doesn't need sorting out, however the SCALE of some of the language on here is out of proportion IMO.
Sure, people are pissed off that SMSL seems to be ignoring the problem, but there's only so much outrage one can have over a $400 DAC. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested doing anything more radical than trying to get a refund from their retailer. Heck, if SMSL is simply going to ignore the issue, that's the only choice one has if they don't want to live with it. Given that, the scale of the outrage seems appropriate to me.

@MusicNBeer makes the point precisely. If Amir had turned up a SINAD of 70dB during his testing, the M500 would've ended up as one of the lowest rated DACs reviewed to date, and it wouldn't have been a blip on anyone's radar.

Put another way, if we accept the conventional wisdom on this forum that the only thing that distinguishes the performance of one DAC from the next are its specs and measurements, then by that definition, the M500 sucks.
 
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MusicNBeer

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@kfscoll Exactly! And you're right. I risked $400 and it didn't work out. I would have bought a Benchmark, RME, or Bryston if I wanted risk free.
 

JSmith

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Put another way, if we accept the conventional wisdom on this forum that the only thing that distinguishes the performance of one DAC from the next are its specs and measurements, then by that definition, the M500 sucks.
Correct, it's silly for anyone on ASR to say this isn't a problem... flies in the face of what is done here and why. Comments on other forums deride such comments and point out the hypocrisy of same, making fun of ASR because of it... don't forget this thread is "watched", the issue is well known across most audio forums and Reddit by now I'd suggest. The only small pass this issue gets is it's 3rd harmonic distortion which is similar to "tube filter", however it's on one channel only and is degrading the THD dramatically in that channel... it's not "ok" and no one should say it is.

The DAC's hardware performs fine and is implemented well, but there was a firmware stuff up... it wasn't done on purpose. It's been identified and fixed as per Prof. Wolf's further testing... what needs to happen is SU-9 owners need to be sent the update device and M500 owners need to be instructed on how to get to the xmos header or be able to swap their unit for an updated version.
Anything that is inconvenient for their company is ignored.
Surely ones brand reputation and tarnishing of same is very inconvenient.



JSmith
 

Lupin

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The SU-9 and M500 are performing over 30 dB degraded relative to spec! SINAD of 70 dB is ATROCIOUS for any modern DAC.
Why did absolutely no one actually hear there was a problem with the M500 if it is really that atrocious as you make it out to be?
The unit was released 1.5 years ago and until a bit over a month ago nobody had any issues with this "atrocious" DAC, in fact people on ASR were recommending it to other people even days before Liu started the topic about the issue.

As I said earlier, overheated reactions and blowing things out of proportion.
 
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Lupin

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There are for sure audible differences between DACs, as Vendors can adjust a lot of things and their experience makes the difference. Isnt it so that even using different parts and Layouts might make an audible difference? I bought now the good Loxije D30 and hear a difference but for sure its not worse sounding than SU9. If u have a DAC switch thats the only way to find out which one u prefer. Without direct comparing both sound great...
The point is still that they didnt deliver that great DAC like Amir tested. Call it psychology related but I had also paid for the great measurement results.

I only read to you can hear a difference. Without any data to back it up you're just another person who claims to have goldenears.
 

solderdude

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Sure, people are pissed off that SMSL seems to be ignoring the problem

It is very clear SMSL is not ignoring the problem. It is already fixed.
Rolling out the 'solution' for existing M500 and SU-9 is the real issue.
There is a risk of bricking when the update process goes sideways rendering an otherwise good sounding DAC useless. Who is responsible in that case ?

And Lupin is correct in that it does not seem to be an audible issue at all. Technically there is an issue in the order of magnitude of the early E30.
That too was an inaudible issue that was blown out of proportion and was fixed by newer versions and sort of a 'patch' for USB only.
 
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