strange SMSL M500 high 3rd harmonic

[Jimbob54]

To complete your analogy, we could add another detail: the max allowed speed (aka limits of human hearing) in the country is 70mph. You couldn't ever reach the real max speed of 150mph, let alone the advertised max of 180mph, but, as the Germans would say: es geht ums Prinzip. Customers should get what was advertised, even though they may not need that in the first place.

Absolutely. It needs fixing/ solving

 

[Jimbob54]

Absolutely. It needs fixing/ solving

At this point, for an M500, I would settle for a partial refund after my year or so of ownership

 

[Walderstorn]

look. the performance obviously hasn't changed at all with the change in output OPA. BOMs change with hardware revisions all the time. would you complain if they changed (and they almost certainly have) passive sourcing? resistors, capacitors suppliers and values? absolutely not. as long as the performance hasn't changed, you wouldn't notice or care. they went from a good OPA to another good OPA. the performance didn't change. it happens to be more cost effective, and available, which may not have been the case for OPA1612 when they made the decision (if they even made the decision, and it wasn't a contract manufacturer changing the BOM on them without notice..).

supply chain is a complete disaster right now across the world. just look at geshelli's posts to see how much trouble, as a small manufacturer, they've had with their sourcing recently. there are cars sitting in factories waiting for PCBs.

with all due respect, please try to be patient and understanding here. there was an issue at the what may or may not be the limits of audibility on the latest SMSL 9038pro devices that SMSL has been proactive about root causing, fixing and then working out how to fix for all customers. i understand the existential frustration, but please try to realistic about the situation and not cause yourself and others more anxiety about the situation than it's worth...

Yes I would, as long as it is advertised as having x and z i don't want x and y. Even if I would be OK with that change, at least i should be informed of such a change. If in the end the change doesn't impact the end result so why not inform clients, why keep advertising the same? Again, it's shady at best and no, I am not suffering from anxiety, I just don't like this type of situation so no, I won't be "understanding". I would have been if they informed the clients than we would know what we would get and that the company is transparent, which is something important to me.

I am more of a lurker so I only noticed your reply now.

 

[JSmith]

Has anyone had a reply from Shenzengaudio about the SU-9 regarding shipping of the jtag device, or from SMSL about the M500 on this issue?

It's awfully quiet in here considering the number of owners.



JSmith

 

[chefffe]

Mine went back today to Amazon. Im using again the Loxije D30 until there is any fixed SU9 available. I must say the loxije is doing very well ... no major difference between these 2 DACs but SU9 was somehow "nicer" ... and Display +BT was better.

 

[tommyst]

Well my M500 is about one year old. It's my second device. I returned the first unit because I could not update the firmware. And with bass heavy songs I could occasionally hear an audible crackling sound only in the left channel. With my new unit HW 1.3 SW 1.6 there weren't these issues so far.

I'm a bit confused about how severe this findings are.

Do all M500 versions have this issue? There is Ver. 1 and Ver. 2 Software 1.6 and 1.7?

When playing normal music is the 3rd harmonic problem audible or only under certain occasions?

Does ist make a difference concerning this issue if one uses XLR or RCA output from M500 to an amplifier.

If I reduce the M500 power from 40 to 30 to reduce the 3rd harmonic how much sinaid do I loose?

I'm very disappointed now that such an expensive dac has such problems. I hope SMSL finds an solution to upgrade the firmware for everyone.

 

[kfscoll]

I can't believe SMSL hasn't posted once in this thread. It's now been well over one month since they've been made aware of the M500 issue and still...silence. Evidently they just don't care about taking care of their customers. Oh well - lesson learned. If they don't care about me, then I'm done with them.

 

[kiyu]

I can't believe SMSL hasn't posted once in this thread. It's now been well over one month since they've been made aware of the M500 issue and still...silence. Evidently they just don't care about taking care of their customers. Oh well - lesson learned. If they don't care about me, then I'm done with them.

I am not defending SMSL, but I guess the solution for M500 is not easy, because it is not easy to update the device, Su-9 has a "socket" or something that with a special tool can be updated (wolf already tried and fixed the issue) so the massive update could be possible on Su-9, probably they are still planning on what to do with the ones already sold abroad. M500 as they is no socket or anything, I guess it will be harder to fix it.
I know that silence is obviously not the best, but hopefully, they are working on it.
the last comment from Wolf was that he was going to meet with SMLS manager to try to work on this.

 

[kfscoll]

I am not defending SMSL, but I guess the solution for M500 is not easy, because it is not easy to update the device, Su-9 has a "socket" or something that with a special tool can be updated (wolf already tried and fixed the issue) so the massive update could be possible on Su-9, probably they are still planning on what to do with the ones already sold abroad. M500 as they is no socket or anything, I guess it will be harder to fix it.
I know that silence is obviously not the best, but hopefully, they are working on it.
the last comment from Wolf was that he was going to meet with SMLS manager to try to work on this.

If SMSL is working on a fix then they should say so. The fact that they haven't said one word (either here or through other means) even though they've known about the problem for some time is a red flag. A big red flag. The only hope that's been passed on to SMSL's customers has been through third-parties (e.g. Liu and Wolf). Kudos to them but BAD on SMSL -- especially if that's their strategy for communicating with their end users.

 

[kfscoll]

Some proper snowflakes on here, strangely with few posts to their name.

My M400 is an epic DAC though the CoAx and SPIDIF inputs are not as good as those on DAC's containing ESS DAC chips.

Should I be outraged and demand an explanation in person ?

I knew my post count would come up eventually, but I didn't think I'd also be called a "snowflake!" It's a two-for-one day, I guess! Here's a tip: Ad hominem attacks never hold water and post counts are irrelevant. Besides, you're completely misrepresenting the issue. Let me help:

Your DAC is (as far as we know) performing within specs and as advertised. In the case of the M500, SMSL sold something that doesn't perform as advertised. Many of us (me included) bought an M500 largely based on SMSL's claimed specs and its performance as measured by Amir. Now that a performance flaw has been discovered, SMSL should offer its customers a solution that will make the product perform as advertised. However, If they don't offer such a solution, there's really no realistic recourse for the average consumer except to (1) point out the issue in forums such as this, (2) demand that the company acknowledge the issue and eventually announce a plan to correct it, and if neither of those happens, then (3) vote with their wallet.

Since us "snowflakes" have tried #1 and #2 and it's been more than a month with no word from SMSL, it'll soon be time for #3.

I don't think anyone is demanding "an explanation in person," but a simple post by SMSL here would go a long way to assuaging the uncomfortable feeling most M500 owners have about the dwindling likelihood of getting their DACs fixed.

I've mentioned before that I also own an M400 and SP400 and have no issues with either -- but that's beside the point. And something tells me that if you happened to own an M500, you'd be an angry "snowflake" like the rest of us.

It's okay - lesson learned. If SMSL doesn't come around I'll return my M500 and get another Matrix Audio DAC (no connection, just a happy customer). With Matrix it's been my experience that you get personalized troubleshooting help and an attitude that indicates the company is dedicated to its customers.

 

[MusicNBeer]

Life is too short. If it's bugging you, buy a new DAC and don't look back. Avoid SMSL in the future. Assume it isn't going to get fixed. SMSL is the honey badger...

 

[raif71]

Hopefully future batches of M500 will have this issue fixed and confirmed by SMSL.

 

[chefffe]

I can't believe SMSL hasn't posted once in this thread. It's now been well over one month since they've been made aware of the M500 issue and still...silence. Evidently they just don't care about taking care of their customers. Oh well - lesson learned. If they don't care about me, then I'm done with them.

This is exactly the point why I returned mine. I don't want to be on the begging side of the "deal"...
Don't forget, SU9 could be kind of easy updated, but even this was not yet a point for smsl to act accordingly..

 

[Lupin]

When playing normal music is the 3rd harmonic problem audible or only under certain occasions?

I think it's obvious that it is not audible.
The M500 released in 2019 this issue came to light just over a month ago.. this issue would have come to light much, much sooner and people would have voiced how dissatisfied they are with their M500 if it really was that audible.

That's why I think people here reacting a bit "overheated".
They enjoyed their M500 for months, maybe even years and recommended it to anyone who was interested.
This issue is posted on ASR and suddenly the M500 is crap and trash and demand refunds, threat with legal actions and whatnot. So what exactly changed with the unit... nothing! A person fully enjoyed their unit a day ago and now that person is not able to enjoy it anymore... it's all between the ears and mindset and nothing that has actually changed with the unit.

This is also confirmed by Amir in one of his reviews in which he reviewed a "blue section" DAC and a "red section" DAC. Don't remember the exact numbers on top of my head but the SINAD difference was over 40 between the DACs. Still Amir stated that the difference was very subtle and most probably wouldn't even notice in regular day to day use. But a lot of people seem to have trouble interpreting the numbers for what they really are. I don't take anyone serious who claim a day and night difference between two Dacs as there is simply not that big of a difference even between a "blue" and "red" DAC. I'm pretty confident that the majority of people can't hear the difference between a "blue" DAC and a "red" DAC in a double blind test. Yet everyone is ready to jump on the bandwagon and call a DAC trash just because it scores 6 SINDAD lower then another one.

To be clear i fully understand and acknowledge that there is an issue with the M500.
I fully understand the irritation/frustration by the M500 owners due the lack of communication from SMSL.
I do believe that SMSL should come up with an acceptable solution for all M500 owners.

 

[chefffe]

If you argument like this then even the cheapest DACs with - 75 Sinad should perform similar. Why spending then 400?
Do you really think Amir would still recommend it with this result?
How many people bought it only of Amir's recommendation?

 

[Lupin]

If you argument like this then even the cheapest DACs with - 75 Sinad should perform similar. Why spending then 400?
Do you really think Amir would still recommend it with this result?
How many people bought it only of Amir's recommendation?

They most certainly do not perform the same, they will measure differently. The far more important question is do they audibly sound the same and at what point do they start to differ. I don't know about you but my guess is that 99% of the people buy a DAC to listen to music, not to hook it up to an analyzer and stare at numbers all day. So who cares that one DAC performs better with a 6 points higher SINAD then another cheaper DAC when they are audibly indistinguishable from each other. Once you place the unit on your desk that 6 points of SINAD doesn't mean anything besides perhaps some bragging rights and the "peace of mind" that you bought the top of the chart DAC.

Amir reviewed 160 euro ish DACs and called then audibly transparant. Amir reviewed DACs way north of 600 euro and called then audibly transparant.
They don't preform the same but both are audibly transparant.

Why spend >400.. because one might be looking for specific features, a specific look or a specific designed chassis. All valid reasons.

What is not a valid reason IMHO is that one buys a >400 audibly transparant DAC for the sole reason/claims that is sounds better then a 200 DAC that is also audibly transparant.

 

[Jimbob54]

The joy of audio for a hobby, some cry FRAUD (then strangely wonder why the manufacturers do not engage on here).

Others say I cant hear any problem.

I wonder how many tens of thousands of other DACs there are out there, whose measurements are not 'acceptable'.

I have an SMSL M400 it is the best DAC I have ever heard, though I have no way to measure it.

And if you found out it had a SINAD of 70 rather than 120 or whatever, you'd be happy with that result?

This isn't about audibility, it's about getting what you paid for. You'd be happy finding out your 21ct gold item was actually 9ct?

I for one was all for giving smsl time to come up with a fix / remedy but I fear we are a good couple of weeks passed acceptable for lack of comms.

No fraud, just an error that needs addressing.

 

[Lupin]

How many people bought it only of Amir's recommendation?

My guess.. the vast majority of M500 buyers will have never even heard of ASR and so didn't base there decision on Amir's recommendation.
This issue is a big thing in the ASR community. How many people will actually be aware of this issue from the total sales of the M500.. We have no way of knowing but my guess a rather small percentage.

 

[raif71]

My 1st desktop DAC/Amp is in the red section and I quite enjoy it.

 

[JSmith]

lack of comms

@SHENZHENAUDIO posted in the SU-9 review thread that new SU-9 units were shipping (direct from them) with the updated firmware now which is good, however have not yet replied to questions as to what the firmware version number is, how to tell before purchase from other suppliers (out of their control to be fair) or about an update device for existing owners. Once update devices are ready, or if, there may be a waiting list... however it would be nice to know when that will be.

As for the M500 I guess SMSL will have to address that one...



JSmith