strange SMSL M500 high 3rd harmonic

[Jimbob54]

@BDWoody assuming the membership can keep this to the odd behaviours of SMSL 9038 pro DACs I would be keen to see it left open so the likes of @WolfX-700 and SMSL reps like @SMSL-Mandy can provide updates direct to affected members . Pretty please.

 

[BDWoody]

I am not looking for reasons to close it. Let's just keep it a little more chill...

I will thread ban those who can't figure it out rather than punish the rest.

 

[nhs]

Hi folks, we are gradually diverted from the topic for which this thread is. Please focus on how SMSL will provide a fix for already sold SU-9 and M500.

 

[Walderstorn]

I don't really understand why the discussion here gets off tangent and heated once in a while, as the intentions overall are from what I gather, well-meant on both sides. I think it's super great @liu found the issue and that SMSL will fix it. I don't understand however the occasional "(predominately Chinese)" or "Chinese manufacturer (Topping) who the admins on this site will never ban" comment. I honestly don't see what that has got to do with any of this. I don't believe a Western designed/made DAC will be otherwise immune to design issues...? At least, I don't think so.

Well, nationalities aside, very hardly a representant of a brand would be "made an example off" in a website. For example, @liu (in his own right) feels that the passive-aggressiveness showed by another member is incorrect and he "verbalized" this, several times and nothing changed. Would it be the same if it was the other away? Maybe yes, maybe not, but very hardly would a MoT be as easily "punished" as a regular member, it's not about this website in particular, but in general, since websites need/want revenue and well...gear is needed (ofc some will always try to bs saying they would buy it anyway, even if they didn't get it for free).

Fortunately for @liu there's other forums where he would be more than welcomed, if it's his interest in the first place.

Hi folks, we are gradually diverted from the topic for which this thread is. Please focus on how SMSL will provide a fix for already sold SU-9 and M500.

In the end of the day this is definitely the thing to be focused on. I do find it weird (but not surprised) that it has been taking so long but what do i know... logically in terms of a company this wouldn't be a "let's snap our fingers and make it happen" situation.

 

[Veri]

One big misconception here is despite popular opinion, yes ASR has become a big site and has many page views, Amir might earn some in ads and views and has benefit to having ASR be popular and stay popular, but there is no financial compensation from MoTs. There is no kind of special treatment of bribes or any of the kind, hah. At most, big players like ShenzhenAudio of manufacturers like Topping and SMSL send Amir stuff free of charge and often let him keep those samples.

But more reviews are actually user sent-in gear. Many users support the site via patreon or donations. More than anything ASR is forum user driven, not some MoT hub like head-fi. Big difference...

 

[Walderstorn]

And no one stated that there were bribes or anything of the sort and otherwise but let's keep the bs like the "might earn", like it's a maybe to anyone, out of this. Sorry i don't like hypocrisy or someone who walks in egg shells to keep himself in a good light.

I won't derail this again, sorry to the other members. Moving back to the topic.

 

[WolfX-700]

In the end of the day this is definitely the thing to be focused on. I do find it weird (but not surprised) that it has been taking so long but what do i know... logically in terms of a company this wouldn't be a "let's snap our fingers and make it happen" situation.

I think I need to sort out the timeline (from my point of view). I started to intervene and buy DUT (M500) on April 26, and the measurement was completed on April 27 (and confirmed the issue).I gave SMSL feedback on April 28th and sent the M500 I purchased.

I'm not a staff of SMSL, I am an independent measurer. And the distance between my location and the location of SMSL is 1000KM+.

SMSL received the M500 from me on April 30, and I also received another M500 from SMSL on the same day.

Unfortunately, I have arranged a journey (April 30 to May 5)

After the holiday, I updated the measurement results of the M500 I received and asked SMSL to lend me an SU-9 for measurement.

They sent it out the day after I made the request and arrived two days later (May 9th).

But (maybe I need to apologize?) I was very busy the few days after the holidays (I have my own job) so I was 3 days late to review SU-9. And found the same issue.(May 12)

Two M500s (with different firmware) and two different models of devices had the same issues which helped SMSL locate it.

They spent three days...but there was a weekend during the period (so a total of 5 days)

I got the tools and it took another 2 days.

Unfortunately, a lot of time is spent on express delivery.

As far as I know, the status is that SMSL did not know the solution to the problem until Monday, and their engineers and bosses are discussing how to give customers (not me) a reasonable solution.

Sorry, I actually don't have any control over SMSL.I can only give suggestions. The SMSL boss told me before that he would come to Hangzhou in late May to have some discussions with me. I can only give him some advice and pressure at that time as much as possible.

If anyone is disappointed with this timeline, I am really helpless.


By the way, I appreciate (and try my best to support) Liu's efforts in discovering and resolving issues on SMSL DAC this time. But I personally feel disgusted by some of his unfriendly (I think it is suspected of racial discrimination) remarks.

 

[Walderstorn]

@WolfX-700 thanks for the feedback, that's what i had my curiosity on. You don't have to apologize, you have a life to live. It is great to have an idea how things are going and benefits everyone.

One thing i did try to use search (maybe wrong keyword?) and i couldn't find is the chip situation, is that something that you got any feedback about? I mean the fact that they stated one product and delivered another (as a consumer for me this is infuriating).

 

[Jimbob54]

I think I need to sort out the timeline (from my point of view). I started to intervene and buy DUT (M500) on April 26, and the measurement was completed on April 27 (and confirmed the issue).I gave SMSL feedback on April 28th and sent the M500 I purchased.

I'm not a staff of SMSL, I am an independent measurer. And the distance between my location and the location of SMSL is 1000KM+.

SMSL received the M500 from me on April 30, and I also received another M500 from SMSL on the same day.

Unfortunately, I have arranged a journey (April 30 to May 5)

After the holiday, I updated the measurement results of the M500 I received and asked SMSL to lend me an SU-9 for measurement.

They sent it out the day after I made the request and arrived two days later (May 9th).

But (maybe I need to apologize?) I was very busy the few days after the holidays (I have my own job) so I was 3 days late to review SU-9. And found the same issue.(May 12)

Two M500s (with different firmware) and two different models of devices had the same issues which helped SMSL locate it.

They spent three days...but there was a weekend during the period (so a total of 5 days)

I got the tools and it took another 2 days.

Unfortunately, a lot of time is spent on express delivery.

As far as I know, the status is that SMSL did not know the solution to the problem until Monday, and their engineers and bosses are discussing how to give customers (not me) a reasonable solution.

Sorry, I actually don't have any control over SMSL.I can only give suggestions. The SMSL boss told me before that he would come to Hangzhou in late May to have some discussions with me. I can only give him some advice and pressure at that time as much as possible.

If anyone is disappointed with this timeline, I am really helpless.


By the way, I appreciate (and try my best to support) Liu's efforts in discovering and resolving issues on SMSL DAC this time. But I personally feel disgusted by some of his unfriendly (I think it is suspected of racial discrimination) remarks.

Personally don't think you should apologise or feel obligated to adhere to any time line but your own if you are a 3rd party with the skills and kit to help identify /diagnose free of charge. Really the manufacturer (any, not just smsl) should have the in house capacity for this or hire in as needed.

But I get the impression they too are not being idle, these scenarios are challenging and frustrating for all. Thanks for your inputs Mr Wolf.

 

[dpippel]

Personally don't think you should apologise or feel obligated to adhere to any time line but your own if you are a 3rd party with the skills and kit to help identify /diagnose free of charge. Really the manufacturer (any, not just smsl) should have the in house capacity for this or hire in as needed.

Exactly. What I find troubling is that S.M.S.L seems to be relying so heavily on a 3rd party, who's basically volunteering his time and expertise, to ferret out this problem. If I understand things correctly the issue is easily reproducible, so beyond reporting it in the first place, why was Dr. Wolf involved beyond that point? Aren't the in-house engineers at S.M.S.L capable of dealing with this themselves? I would surely hope so!

My comments are not meant to diminish the great work that Dr. Wolf has done here in any way, shape, or form. I'm just wondering what the heck is going on at S.M.S.L?

 

[WolfX-700]

@WolfX-700 thanks for the feedback, that's what i had my curiosity on. You don't have to apologize, you have a life to live. It is great to have an idea how things are going and benefits everyone.

One thing i did try to use search (maybe wrong keyword?) and i couldn't find is the chip situation, is that something that you got any feedback about? I mean the fact that they stated one product and delivered another (as a consumer for me this is infuriating).

You are talking about replacing OPA1612 with LME49720. Although this replacement "is not reflected in the promotional materials in a timely manner," considering that it is only an Opamp, this is not a serious behavior. --This is my opinion

 

[WolfX-700]

Exactly. What I find troubling is that S.M.S.L seems to be relying so heavily on a 3rd party, who's basically volunteering his time and expertise, to ferret out this problem. If I understand things correctly the issue is easily reproducible, so beyond reporting the problem in the first place, why was Dr. Wolf involved beyond that point? Aren't the in-house engineers at S.M.S.L capable of dealing with this themselves? I would surely hope so!

My comments are not meant to diminish the great work that Dr. Wolf has done here in any way, shape, or form. I'm just wondering what the heck is going on at S.M.S.L?

There is a Chinese saying: Doctors cannot diagnose themselves.
There is a similar expression in English: the onlooker sees most of the game.

In communicating with engineers of different brands, I have discovered one thing: the bigger the brand, the bigger the company, the more important it is to standardize internal processes. Including the measurement items and processes carried out during development.

This is one of the important meanings of the existence of third-party measurement.

 

[dpippel]

There is a Chinese saying: Doctors cannot diagnose themselves.
There is a similar expression in English: the onlooker sees most of the game.

In communicating with engineers of different brands, I have discovered one thing: the bigger the brand, the bigger the company, the more important it is to standardize internal processes. Including the measurement items and processes carried out during development.

This is one of the important meanings of the existence of third-party measurement.

Absolutely. However, in this case the problem had already been identified and the steps needed to reproduce and measure it outlined. IMO that's all that was needed for a complete handoff to S.M.S.L. But, I'm just a hapless consumer of these products. What do I know?

 

[chefffe]

This is the nearest possible to be for people who dont want to pay for companies bought testing results. I also think we are here at the highest level of getting info about the best buck for the money! Many thanks for that!

 

[Walderstorn]

You are talking about replacing OPA1612 with LME49720. Although this replacement "is not reflected in the promotional materials in a timely manner," considering that it is only an Opamp, this is not a serious behavior. --This is my opinion

Yes i am. I definitely understand this but for me just because it fills the same function is still an awful position. If you order a set of silver forks and get a bunch of yellow forks don't you get upset? They fill the same function but they are different. Of course it's a less-than-ideal-comparison but it still represents the situation.

Not only that but the fact that they "didn't know" or just didn't care to inform the costumers correctly for me makes a company that is shady at best and the trust link is very hard to regain.

 

[TheTalbotHound]

What was the firmware doing that could cause a 3rd harmonic spike like that? haven't really been following this thread, but it makes me wonder what else could be wrong with otherwise well measuring devices that we don't know about.

 

[kiyu]

HI @WolfX-700
I would like to say thank you for your help and contribution first.
as your talking with SMSL.
couple question.
1) do you know if the firmware provided to you is a final version or just a test to fix this issue?
2) Did they mention if the products will come out with that new firmware from now on? ( or they are still selling products with problems.. :S)
3) Su-9 got fixed with the firmware what about M500?

General question I wondering if this gets big, how they will fix the units that they sent abroad.., they may send the firmware tool, same as they did with you or how will be the best approach..
ones again thank you!!

 

[mkawa]

Yes i am. I definitely understand this but for me just because it fills the same function is still an awful position. If you order a set of silver forks and get a bunch of yellow forks don't you get upset? They fill the same function but they are different. Of course it's a less-than-ideal-comparison but it still represents the situation.

Not only that but the fact that they "didn't know" or just didn't care to inform the costumers correctly for me makes a company that is shady at best and the trust link is very hard to regain.

look. the performance obviously hasn't changed at all with the change in output OPA. BOMs change with hardware revisions all the time. would you complain if they changed (and they almost certainly have) passive sourcing? resistors, capacitors suppliers and values? absolutely not. as long as the performance hasn't changed, you wouldn't notice or care. they went from a good OPA to another good OPA. the performance didn't change. it happens to be more cost effective, and available, which may not have been the case for OPA1612 when they made the decision (if they even made the decision, and it wasn't a contract manufacturer changing the BOM on them without notice..).

supply chain is a complete disaster right now across the world. just look at geshelli's posts to see how much trouble, as a small manufacturer, they've had with their sourcing recently. there are cars sitting in factories waiting for PCBs.

with all due respect, please try to be patient and understanding here. there was an issue at the what may or may not be the limits of audibility on the latest SMSL 9038pro devices that SMSL has been proactive about root causing, fixing and then working out how to fix for all customers. i understand the existential frustration, but please try to realistic about the situation and not cause yourself and others more anxiety about the situation than it's worth...

 

[Hemi-Demon]

@SMSL-Mandy

Any update when we can get a link to the firmware update, and a place to buy the adapter cable? I am getting a bit frustrated by all this waiting and silence. Wolf has done all this amazing testing for the consumer community work, and proved that the issue @liu identified can be fixed. Why haven't you posted the fix for all of us that have paid for this device?

 

[Jimbob54]

@SMSL-Mandy

Any update when we can get a link to the firmware update, and a place to buy the adapter cable? I am getting a bit frustrated by all this waiting and silence. Wolf has done all this amazing testing for the consumer community work, and proved that the issue @liu identified can be fixed. Why haven't you posted the fix for all of us that have paid for this device?

What would you prefer, a device with a barely audible harmonic distortion or a bricked device? Because if you've followed the sorry tale of the driver updates for the M500, never mind rushed full firmware fixes, you'll wait for the right fix applied the right way.