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Strange measurement. Is my LSR310S sub toasted?

Tupisac

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I've bought an used sub and started room measures, but something seemed wrong - very sharp drop after 40 Hz. So I've put a microphone directly under a sub's driver.

See attachment. It this sharp dip a room mode or a toasted sub? How to measure down firing sub at the driver correctly?


Other than that, it plays ok - 80 Hz/XLF crossover seem to work, blends nicely with music, but no chest kick... Should I return it immediately or investigate further?
 

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Tupisac

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Same thing.
 

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Tupisac

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I'm guessing it's just the port tuning frequency. If you measure the port you would see a peak at ~30Hz.

You're right - see attachment with port measurement. Thanks.

I guess it's safe to assume that the sub is fine and the problem is with my room. You don't want to see my measurements from yesterday ;).


That's why subs are usually measured ground plane further away.

Any tips? Should mic just lie on a ground at listening position or be mounted vertically?
 

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Eetu

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Any tips? Should mic just lie on a ground at listening position or be mounted vertically?
Just to clarify, these are taken outdoors otherwise room modes mess everything up. Here's an Audioholics article on the topic.

Alternatively, you can try to combine the near-field measurements you just took of the woofer + port. See this thread for a step-by-step guide.
 

dominikz

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Any tips? Should mic just lie on a ground at listening position or be mounted vertically?
Ground-plane measurements are usually done outside or very large spaces, ideally where there are no obstacles for ~10m around the system under test. But the nearfield measurements you did are IMHO sufficient to check that the sub response is OK.

Would you be willing to attach the .mdat file with the driver and port nearfield response? We can sum them to get an idea of the total anechoic response of the sub.
I've bought an used sub and started room measures, but something seemed wrong - very sharp drop after 40 Hz.
Where is you sub located in your room - i.e. how far from surrounding hard surfaces?
Do you have in-room response measurements from the listening position that you can share (ideally for: main+sub, only mains and only the sub)?
 
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Tupisac

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Would you be willing to attach the .mdat file with the driver and port nearfield response?

Sure. I didn't save previous ones, so I made new. See attachment.

Mic under the driver this time - I have bad back and moving this chungus around is not exactly my favorite exercise ;)

Be aware of the fact I'm using cheapo Behringer mic, no calibrations, no SPL meter, at randomly set input and output level. Sub is set at 80 Hz crossover.

EDIT: after glancing through provided links - I've took port measures wrong. Not flush with the opening, but around 5 cm inside. Levels were the same for port and driver measurement.



Where is you sub located in your room - i.e. how far from surrounding hard surfaces? Do you have in-room response measurements from the listening position that you can share (ideally for: main+sub, only mains and only the sub)?

Between 30-50 cm, in the corner of the room.

I'm planning a redesign of my room - will post some rough sketches in new thread somewhere in the future. Lot's of issues there, like sloped ceiling and irregular shape. No point in sharing measures now. Also, I just realized I might have taken those with the port facing the wrong way :facepalm:
 

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Tupisac

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Yes this is basic knowledge.

I'm not afraid to admit that I have no idea about subs - this is my first time. I'm not an audio pro either.

I'm having fun with lowpass filter and music. It just downed on me how tricky bass proofing might be. There is this ungodly racket at some frequencies which I have hard time pinpointing where it's coming from. I hope it's not a frame of my dropped ceiling...

Also, my wife just discovered that this thing makes blinds rattle in our bedroom two rooms away. She's delighted.
 
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Tupisac

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Oops! :cool:

Jim

Women are strange. My wife seemed to love motorcycles and loud stereos when she was younger ;)


Any tips on sub placement in rooms with sloped ceiling? My room is approximately a 3,5 x 3 m rectangle (horizontal first). Slanted ceiling goes along longer dimension on just one side.
 
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Tupisac

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fg_lite.exe Download program for Windows .

I'm on mac. I might fiddle with it through wine if it's worth it. Is it better than REW generator? Also, crawling and listening seems a bit medieval, woudn't be easier to just use measuring mic with RTA in REW?
 

dominikz

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Sure. I didn't save previous ones, so I made new. See attachment.

Mic under the driver this time - I have bad back and moving this chungus around is not exactly my favorite exercise ;)

Be aware of the fact I'm using cheapo Behringer mic, no calibrations, no SPL meter, at randomly set input and output level. Sub is set at 80 Hz crossover.

EDIT: after glancing through provided links - I've took port measures wrong. Not flush with the opening, but around 5 cm inside. Levels were the same for port and driver measurement.





Between 30-50 cm, in the corner of the room.

I'm planning a redesign of my room - will post some rough sketches in new thread somewhere in the future. Lot's of issues there, like sloped ceiling and irregular shape. No point in sharing measures now. Also, I just realized I might have taken those with the port facing the wrong way :facepalm:
Thanks! Here's the summed port+driver response:
JBL LSR310 - nearfield driver and port sum.png

Note that the absolute shape of the response might not reflect 100% the subwoofer's real anechoic (or ground-plane) response because difraction effects are not taken into account. However, the shape of the response is less relevant for subwoofers anyway because in practice it will anyway be mangled by room modes and SBIR.

JBL specify Low Frequency Extension as 27 Hz, which seems to be right on the money because the LF -10dB point in the above plot is at ~27Hz as well.

Corner of the room could be an OK position for the sub as it should result in the most LF energy and headroom, but it will only work well if you have PEQ capability to bring down the resonances (which will probably be amplified a lot there). I'd also put the sub as close as possible to the walls to try and bring the SBIR frequencies well above the crossover - just be carefull not to block the port! The port should ideally be turned toward the room so you're sure it has enough room to breathe :)

Lastly, I'd suggest to use a measurement mic and REW to tune the subwoofer sensitivity, phase and crossover frequency. I do this with iterative sweep measurements with the mic on a stand at the listening position.
Once you have that dialed in, I'd suggest to use MMM to measure the response at the listening position for L+sub, R+sub and L+R+sub and to generate the PEQ correction <~300Hz (based on variable smoothing). Perhaps the short guide I wrote here can help you with this.

Good luck and enjoy! :)
 
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807Recordings

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Also check the sub is not in club mode. I believe there is a switch there which allows the sub to mimic club bass response. This is a bit bumped in certain frequencies and I believe a faster roll off. Don't quote me as I do not have the manual in front of me to give exact numbers.
 
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Tupisac

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Thanks guys for all the input, much appreciated :)

I've been listening to some music, moved a sub here and there as far as my short cables allowed, done some rough measurements. I think I'm ready to share some impressions, doubts and observations.


The good.

Initial setup was really easy with my LSR305 monitors. Throw it under a desk - check. Set 80 Hz crossover - check. Set same volume as monitors - check. Confirm volume match with REW - check. Done. Basically plug and play.

And it immediately made all the music 90% more awesome. Didn't change it, didn't reveal anything new, I could hear all the notes before, but it just gave them proper gravity back. I played a bit of bass guitar long time ago and I must say this is much more like it. Now I feel my ears being squeezed in like I remember.
But what stunned me the most was how good it works in low volume near field. It's immaculate. I can feel every beat through my desk and mouse and it's perfectly linear with the volume slider. Even at night, when kids and wife are asleep - I can throw in some crazy dub track and get enveloped in whisper-quiet yet properly fat and smooth bass that somehow doesn't leave the room and doesn't bother anyone up.

As it works as a new footrest now, feels very sturdy and nicely baffled. The whole box barely vibrates even at high volumes. It can move impressive amount of air - I can immediately feel the wind from a meter away and yet it's completely silent. Just like with my wife.

The club setting (XLF) is absolutely ridiculous. Completely useless, stupid amounts of loud booms, probably designed for simpletons at drunken frat parties. Love it. It will certainly impress some of my friends.


The bad.

Although sounding generally right, there is one crucial thing missing. Those lost 10% of awesomeness. The chest kick. Anyone who had the pleasure of standing next to a drum set should know what I'm talking about. Properly rocked kick just rips the breath out of you and shakes the blood in aortas. And it's just not there. I expected a bit more from such a big and heavy package. I came to a realization that my music collection includes things like soundtracks and with those the sub slightly under delivers too. I went through usual Zimmers and Daft Punks. Pumped the sub volume up. Engaged warp 11 and put the frat boy XLF on. I could see the desperate draft from the port moving the drapes, but couldn't feel the drama. That's where the buyer's remorse kicked in - maybe the SVS SB-1000 was a better choice? I whipped the mic out and started investigating...


The ugly.

See my measurement at the desk. Bass basically ends and leaves home at 38 Hz. My monitors on their own don't measure much higher. WTF? And this is a studio sub? Where is my extension to 27 Hz??? I mean, I got it for cheap, but not this cheap.

Screenshot 2022-12-11 at 00.50.14.png




Reversing polarity didn't change much:

Screenshot 2022-12-11 at 00.52.33.png




Feels like I'm being robbed of those precious 10 Hz below 40. Maybe there's my chest kick hiding, or at least big part of it? I've started going around a room with the mic. Here are the measurements:

On the couch:

Screenshot 2022-12-11 at 00.57.26.png




And measurement from the opposite corner of the room:

Screenshot 2022-12-11 at 01.02.36.png



All of those were taken with the 80 Hz crossover. Rough, single measurements from hand, so don't look much into higher frequencies. Smoothing 1/24.

I can't really work from the opposite corner of the room, so I started wondering if moving stuff around would help. The issue is that I'm limited to PEQ, so no phase trickery for me. Also, can't really test with different positioning much for now - need to order longer cords.

For reference - this is my current arrangement. I've tested the sub under the desk from left to right and so far this is the best position:

Screenshot 2022-12-10 at 15.16.00.png


It is not very optimal for a lots of reasons, I was thinking about the general remodeling for years and now it's good time.

There is a slanted ceiling situation going on and I haven't found definitive info on optimal speaker placement in such conditions. My measurements give me slight hope - maybe moving everything to the other side could be beneficial? Something like this:

Screenshot 2022-12-10 at 15.21.18.png
 
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Tupisac

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I believe "chest kick" or "chest thump" is higher in frequency, like 60-90 Hz. You seem to have a trough there.
Check this out for kick drum frequencies; scroll down to about 2/3 of the page.

Jim

Huh. Interesting. I do have a significant dip right around 80 Hz.
 

807Recordings

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I believe "chest kick" or "chest thump" is higher in frequency, like 60-90 Hz. You seem to have a trough there.
Check this out for kick drum frequencies; scroll down to about 2/3 of the page.

Jim
I still go back to my JBL SVA 2100s with subs for that chest kick. Electronic Music, especially techno (I produce-not dance music) has kicks below 40Hz and I purposely have bass information down to 20Hz. Sometimes notes between 20-30Hz as a big PA/Club system will easily reproduce that and it is felt on the big systems.
My Studio with the JBL 305s, the 310 sub is by far more frequency accurate but it just doesn't give that presentation a large system can. The more bedroom producers have shown up the more you can also hear it in the productions of music and I partially think why more compression is applied these days.

That aside I find it a decent sub for the price, especially combined with their speakers. My studio is really small so it works, but if I could bigger speakers in I gladly would.
 
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Tupisac

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My studio is really small so it works, but if I could bigger speakers in I gladly would.

Yea, I feel the same. It just made me want more.

But I've red something interesting on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/musicproduction/comments/zju7c0/_/izy7wyu
I've checked with my room dimensions and 3,5 meters is around 49 Hz (7 meters wavelength / 2). If we count in the niche with a wardrobe it goes down to 43 Hz (8 meters / 2) and gets pretty close to my measurements.
 
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