Steve Guttenberg says this R2R DAC sounds like Vinyl

[IVX]

Sergei, I've played a lot with AD DSP, they have very convenient IDE Sigmastudio, and made 2nd harmonic dominated THD. SImple chain HPF + abs(x) + LPF makes vocals "more body", and doesn't sound like distortions up to 2-3% of THD. The effect becomes easily noticeable at the level 1% THD or so. However, most of tube-amps, including SE, have THD .5% or less at moderate volume levels and sound like tubes. Also, I've one ES9038Q2M based DAC with a few operating modes, one of them is "SE" emulation with 2nd harmonic domination. In fact there THD = .25% where almost only 2nd harmonic(3rd about -120..-115db). Honestly, I don't think if it sounds like a tube but makes some vocal_more_body effect slightly indeed. So I have to agree to Pluto, the main tube-amp effects rather a natural compression, than 2nd harmonic domination.

 

[Sergei]

Sergei, I've played a lot with AD DSP, they have very convenient IDE Sigmastudio, and made 2nd harmonic dominated THD. SImple chain HPF + abs(x) + LPF makes vocals "more body", and doesn't sound like distortions up to 2-3% of THD. The effect becomes easily noticeable at the level 1% THD or so. However, most of tube-amps, including SE, have THD .5% or less at moderate volume levels and sound like tubes. Also, I've one ES9038Q2M based DAC with a few operating modes, one of them is "SE" emulation with 2nd harmonic domination. In fact there THD = .25% where almost only 2nd harmonic(3rd about -120..-115db). Honestly, I don't think if it sounds like a tube but makes some vocal_more_body effect slightly indeed. So I have to agree to Pluto, the main tube-amp effects rather a natural compression, than 2nd harmonic domination.

Proper "tube" plugins simulate transfer function, not just add even harmonics. Universal Audio plugins reportedly go even further, simulating time-dependent behavior of the actual hardware. The simulation code reportedly mirrors schematics and critically important components of the device.

My point was: for about a decade, it's been more convenient to have a highly-linear hardware chain, and to add desired distortions in a measured way via software, rather than keep swapping differently-distorting pre-amps, amps, and speakers.

 

[LuckyLuke575]

https://www.cnet.com/news/this-digi...oving-audiophiles/#ftag=rss.audiophiliac.ftag

Claimed specs:
Frequency Response: 20-70KHz -3dB
THD+N: 0.004%
S/N Ratio: 115dB
Dynamic Range: >119dB
Stereo Crosstalk: -124dB

I'm skeptical. It looks like a Luddite fantasy to me along with vinyl and tubes. I did not find any measurements.

That guy doesn't know what he's talking about; as evidenced by how he was raving about the Schitt Jontunheim. I like watching his videos on YouTube, but I don't take any of the reviews seriously, esp not the CNET articles.

I have the option to play vinyl records or TIDAL at home, and I always choose to listen to vinyl because the sound comes through in a way I enjoy; which is likely due to the nature of vinyl, the stylus, phono stage, amplification path etc. I can't see how a DAC has anything to do with that.

 

[LuckyLuke575]

You're quite right that it's about salesmanship and enthusiasm. I do think that it's possible to be enthusiastic from an objectivist standpoint as well. Just look at the enthusiasm this site has generated for the JDS Atom and Khadas Tone Board.

The real problem is that those who are convinced that they are objectively right too often feel that this is enough and that they shouldn't have to sell it.

I don't mind enthusiasm if its genuine, and if there's no hidden agenda or pre configured messaging or training behind it.

I enjoy going to my local used hifi audio store because its owned and staffed just by the owner who's owned the shop for 25 years and can buy and sell any brand or model because he's not tied to any specific brand or distributor (he only deals in used equipment). When he shows me an amp or set of speakers etc he explains the provenance of the brand and model and then hooks it up to demonstrate it. He's an enthusiast himself with very clear views based on experience and preferences but without any incentive based bias. He's also focused on quality, because he gives a warranty for everything he sells, so he stands behind what he's willing to deal. I love going into the store to see what he has and talk about different pieces of equipment.

I suppose in this game it comes down to who you're willing to believe and then go with that (obviously your own ears don't lie). I've frequently come up against people on Drop that disparage this forum and @amirm when you post something they don't like (read: Schitt), even when it's actual graphs, links or comparatives. For other guys Zeos on YouTube is the authority (that's when you need to go and jump into a cold lake to recover your senses) but it just goes to show.

 

[LuckyLuke575]

Well, not in the same amount for sure, but why not?

Ideally, you could use a 'transparent' (=good) amplifier and then add coloration, distortion, reverb or other effect to taste. Why not, if that's optional ?
We already have bass/treble tuning available. That's about taste and mood.

I never thought I'd do it, but I started using the treble and bass tone controls on my integrated amp, first for my speakers and now for my headphones. It's about your personal preferences and enjoyment at the end of the day. I'm certainly not going to follow something one way or another just because some palooka on the internet said e.g. 'real audiophiles want to listen to a pure signal' without coloration etc. in the mean time everyone is listening to music with dynamic / tuned speakers and headphones, never mind having different room acoustics etc.

 

[Robin L]

No, but I've listened to him with a "buzz."

Me too.

 

[pkane]

Proper "tube" plugins simulate transfer function, not just add even harmonics

Is there a way to add harmonics without manipulating the transfer function?

 

[NTK]

Is there a way to add harmonics without manipulating the transfer function?

I don't know about not affecting the transfer function, but phase vocoder can be used to simultaneously pitch shift and time dilate. The implementation using STFT (short time fourier transform) is not perfect because of the necessary time smearing of the overlapping STFT often produces audible artifacts.

If you pitch shift by doubling the frequency and slow down time to 1/2 (time dilate), you will in effect create "only" second harmonics. If you have access to Mathematica, this is also implemented in its AudioPitchShift function.

 

[pkane]

I don't know about not affecting the transfer function, but phase vocoder can be used to simultaneously pitch shift and time dilate. The implementation using STFT (short time fourier transform) is not perfect because of the necessary time smearing of the overlapping STFT often produces audible artifacts.

If you pitch shift by doubling the frequency and slow down time to 1/2 (time dilate), you will in effect create "only" second harmonics. If you have access to Mathematica, this is also implemented in its AudioPitchShift function.

That’s a complex way to do this, but I guess it should work. Try to add more than a few harmonics this way

I already have stft, frequency shift and time dilation coded as part of my null testing software I also wrote a harmonics generator that uses a variable nonlinear transfer function simulating an SET amp. Didn’t code any phase effects with this simulator yet, as I didn’t find any analysis of what that might look like.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't mind enthusiasm if its genuine, and if there's no hidden agenda or pre configured messaging or training behind it.

I enjoy going to my local used hifi audio store because its owned and staffed just by the owner who's own the shop for 25 years and can buy and sell any brand or model because he's not tied to any specific brand or distributor (he only deals in used equipment). When he shows me an amp or set of speakers etc he explains the provenance of the brand and model and then hooks it up to demonstrate it. He's an enthusiast himself with very clear views based on experience and preferences but without any incentive based bias. He's also focused on quality, because he gives a warranty for everything he sells, so he stands behind what he's willing to deal. I love going into the store to see what he has and talk about different pieces of equipment.

You are very lucky.

Such stores are very very rare these days.

 

[vert]

But there is a big philosophical difference:

Guitar amps, bass amps, etc, are not simple reproduction devices....they're intended to have a specific sound, i.e they're instruments.

FWIW, this is the bass amp I use:

https://www.mesaboogie.com/amplifie...ss-amp-series/bass-prodigy-four-88/index.html

It uses a mix of KT88 and 12AX7 tubes.

Replying to you weeks after this! I'm thrilled with what Fender has done with their new Twin Reverb and Deluxe Reverb Tone Master amps! They combine four processors for DSP with a class D IcePower amp, into a box that is an exact replica of their tube counterparts. Early user feedback is very, very promising.
I entirely agree with you about tube guitar/bass amps being instruments. I just find it strange how very often, engineering and physics, including room considerations are left out of the discussion. But again, very impressed with Fender on this release, they would make Leo proud. I've been following developments in "modeling" for years, from Kemper to Fractal Audio, to the little Yamaha THR which I own, all the while wondering why traditional amplification seemed stuck in the past. At least Fender had tried something with their Mustang line. But now they've upped their game!

 

[watchnerd]

Replying to you weeks after this! I'm thrilled with what Fender has done with their new Twin Reverb and Deluxe Reverb Tone Master amps! They combine four processors for DSP with a class D IcePower amp, into a box that is an exact replica of their tube counterparts. Early user feedback is very, very promising.
I entirely agree with you about tube guitar/bass amps being instruments. I just find it strange how very often, engineering and physics, including room considerations are left out of the discussion. But again, very impressed with Fender on this release, they would make Leo proud. I've been following developments in "modeling" for years, from Kemper to Fractal Audio, to the little Yamaha THR which I own, all the while wondering why traditional amplification seemed stuck in the past. At least Fender had tried something with their Mustang line. But now they've upped their game!

Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

 

[MOCKBA]

You can listen to vinyl without an amplifier at all. And record them too. So I think any comparisons of amplifiers are irrelevant to the thread.

 

[watchnerd]

You can listen to vinyl without an amplifier at all. And record them too. So I think any comparisons of amplifiers are irrelevant to the thread.

How does that work, unless you have an old style Victrola?

Even if you use headphones, there is an amplifier involved.

Also, the phono stage itself is an amplifier.

 

[Batty]

I just bought one and is the closest my digital has sounded to my Vinyl.

 

[MOCKBA]

How does that work, unless you have an old style Victrola?

Even if you use headphones, there is an amplifier involved.

Also, the phono stage itself is an amplifier.

It was mostly a joke based on the fact that Victrola players allowed sound to be naturally amplified through a diaphragm and horn. We built a simple one using a pencil, a needle and a paper horn at a college. I just pointed that association a vinyl with a type of an amplifier is a mistake.

 

[watchnerd]

It was mostly a joke based on the fact that Victrola players allowed sound to be naturally amplified through a diaphragm and horn. We built a simple one using a pencil, a needle and a paper horn at a college. I just pointed that association a vinyl with a type of an amplifier is a mistake.

Well, kind of....

It's pretty hard to do RIAA EQ with a needle and horn, as required by vinyl LPs (as opposed to shellac disks).