Steve Guttenberg just posted a YouTube video about ASR

[Jinjuku]

You're welcome to take an ahistorical approach to the audio review industry if you like. I find that the history provides worthwhile context for understanding the present state of affairs in a way that "Tucker and his automobile" does not (the reference is entirely lost on me FWIW).

You are missing the point. Back when some publications went to advertiser driven business models a micro transaction economy didn't exist like it does now where content creators can be directly interacted with and even compensated.

That was my point with Tucker and his automobile. What he did, or Stereophile/TAS did 30 years ago doesn't really provide, IMO, the context you speak about (that subscriber only models ultimately failed). This is now and that was then.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

You are missing the point. Back when some publications went to advertiser driven business models a micro transaction economy didn't exist like it does now where content creators can be directly interacted with and even compensated.

That was my point with Tucker and his automobile. What he did, or Stereophile/TAS did 30 years ago doesn't really provide, IMO, the context you speak about (that subscriber only models ultimately failed). This is now and that was then.

And the model would fail again if tried.

 

[dallasjustice]

I don’t think he’s talking about ASR Forum. I think this is a classic straw man argument where the rhetorician creates a single impossible alternative to his favored form of product evaluation. He assumes that products can only be reviewed using listening tests. I guess he’s never heard of Audio Precision. He also assumes the internet doesn’t exist where people all over the world can now freely associate with one another without an intermediary. Steve also assumes that the same free people can’t loan gear to a qualified professional who can use state of the art methods to objectively evaluate the audio gear in a transparent manner.

He’s definitely not talking about ASR. If he were, anyone could simply drop a link to ASR in his comments to rebut this straw man hand waving.

I do think reviewers can play an important role. Their role should be to explain how the gear works and how it’s integrated into their systems. This is useful. Some reviewers regularly do a great job with this type of review. However, many reviewers still have a big ego which is really a remnant from the days when reviewers mattered much more. In those days, buyers hung on every word in the review. The reviewer’s numerous meaningless descriptors took on huge power for the manufacturer’s prospective future sales. Those days are over now.

I guess nobody bothered to tell Steve that very few folks really care about his personal taste in gear. And the number who do care is just getting smaller every year.

 

[andreasmaaan]

You are missing the point. Back when some publications went to advertiser driven business models a micro transaction economy didn't exist like it does now where content creators can be directly interacted with and even compensated.

That was my point with Tucker and his automobile. What he did, or Stereophile/TAS did 30 years ago doesn't really provide, IMO, the context you speak about (that subscriber only models ultimately failed). This is now and that was then.

I don't think I missed that point at all, since this is the first time anyone has made it.

I also missed the part where I or anyone else said subscriber only models had failed!

You earlier statements were:

Stereophile has been accepting advertisers for a long time now. Same for TAS. Try again.

Which is true, but was a non sequitur since nobody claimed they hadn't been.

And:

I don't think it does much good to talk about publications that haven't touched that type of model in 20 years.

Which I took, along with your reference to Tucker (still don't know who/what this is?) to mean that you didn't think the history was worth discussing. Apparently on that point I was also mistaken.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I do not see anything about ASR.

This man is an ignoramus though. He is not trustworthy because he seems to know literally nothing true about audio.

Oh, no, he knows EVERYTHING, or thinks he does.

Anyone who took him seriously even for a moment for decades is intellectually challenged. There are generations of predecessors. Remember the laughable moron, Corey Greenberg? But, it is the chutzpah and delusions of gradeur of reviewers since HP who put themselves, their egos and their golden ears in their crappy rooms with totally uncontrolled listening at the center of the universe. Their wannabe clones have infested most of the internet, since controlling the magazines ages ago.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Steve Guttenberg needs a haircut. Yeah, KR is one of the few reviewers who makes any sense. The entire audiophile scene is a mess where any idiot with a soldering iron can put together a $30,000 amp in their garage with a fancy extruded aluminum front panel. Anyone around here remember the 47 labs Gain Card amp? $150 in parts (retail) and sold for $3k.

Yes, the 47 Labs stuff was always awful. I wondered if the designers had a clue. You could have taken the same $150 and done the design better than they did.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

You two are at cross-purposes. @rebbiputzmaker wasn't talking about the current marketplace, they were talking about the previous business models of these magazines. Nobody is disagreeing with you about the current marketplace.

Personally I found the fact (new to me) that these magazines previously functioned without advertising to be quite interesting as context to the current state of play.

IIRC though, Stereophile only began including objective measurements after they moved from a subscription model to an advertiser-funded model. Does anyone know if I'm correct on that?

Yes, it was only with John Atkinson and after allowing paid advertising had been allowed that his measurements came into Stereophile. JGH before that really did not have adequate measurement gear, which was extremely scarce anyway at the time. Although, JGH did attempt some speaker frequency response measures. They were poor and inadequate.

I have great respect for JA in equipping himself to and in doing the time consuming measurements and commentaries. Except for the honest and understated Kal, though, the rest of the mag is just frothy, unreliable, non-credible entertainment.

 

[Rthomas]

I think Rtings does a good job of independent headphone reviews. All units are bought at retail price. No flowery prose just pratical descriptions of the sound quality with high quality measurements to back it up.

Steve should look into it. He might get a clue by accident

https://www.rtings.com/headphones

 

[andreasmaaan]

Yes, it was only with John Atkinson and after allowing paid advertising had been allowed that his measurements came into Stereophile. JGH before that really did not have adequate measurement gear, which was extremely scarce anyway at the time. Although, JGH did attempt some speaker frequency response measures. They were poor and inadequate.

I have great respect for JA in equipping himself to and in doing the time consuming measurements and commentaries. Except for the honest and understated Kal, though, the rest of the mag is just frothy, unreliable, non-credible entertainment.

Totally agree about JA, his measurements and commentaries were a great source of information for me from early on in my interest in audio. And as I've mentioned to Kal before, those measurements and his reviews guided my choices on my first attempt at a serious stereo system.

I actually seem to recall JGH saying at some point that he didn't believe in measurements and that's why he never made any real efforts to take or publish them. Not sure if I've remembered that correctly or not...

I haven't paid enough attention to the other reviewers to judge, and I've mostly stopped reading reviews like that now. Have certainly been made aware of a few of the more infamous lapses of judgement throughout the years though

 

[svart-hvitt]

Yes, it was only with John Atkinson and after allowing paid advertising had been allowed that his measurements came into Stereophile. JGH before that really did not have adequate measurement gear, which was extremely scarce anyway at the time. Although, JGH did attempt some speaker frequency response measures. They were poor and inadequate.

I have great respect for JA in equipping himself to and in doing the time consuming measurements and commentaries. Except for the honest and understated Kal, though, the rest of the mag is just frothy, unreliable, non-credible entertainment.

«Great respect for JA»?

From The Audio Critic:

«John Atkinson (Stereophile)
Highly intelligent, extremely competent, transparently insincere. I don't know when the hypocrisy started; maybe in his earliest days at Hi-Fi News & Record Review in England he actually believed the tweako B.S. he now redacts and asseverates in Santa Fe; but I refuse to believe that he still believes it. He has been exposed to too much overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary and he just can’t be that dense. (See also Issue No. 22, p. 10.) At this point he mechanically reiterates the party line and comes up with progressively more tortured sophistries to bolster it. Why? Because his job at Larry’s place requires it, and it’s a good job. The trouble is, he has too many readers who still take all that rubbish at face value».
Source: http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/critic3.htm

Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic was a bit controversial himself. Maybe Aczel was wrong. Perhaps Atkinson has changed?

FWIW: Atkinson recommends the green pen for CDs and Audioquest’s Jitterbug. To name a couple of examples.

I am not quite sure if I follow that competency and being equipped with an Audioprecision device deserve respect if the competency and equipment are not used solely in the interest of the reader.

 

[restorer-john]

The way I see it is this: The members already here and the new ones that are attracted to the site, value technical measurements and technical discussion. Some are highly technical and possess the skills and test equipment to be able to contribute and share the load of reviewing. Ultimately, it will not be (already this is happening) a one man show. (The Amir Show).

As such, the costs will be shared and distributed, technical reviews can be done all around the world, individuals will simply want their new gear properly reviewed and manufacturers will collectively lift their game (or not).

I think that in time, it will be not unlike an online technical magazine and discussion portal, with contributing reviewers, each with a different style, but all answerable, interactive and not in bed with manufacturers of products.

The issues arise with the free gifts, samples, loans, junkets to the factories and new products to 'try out for a while'. And if that happens, a simple list of all the gratis items and details could be kept as a live page that is updated and people can draw their own conclusions.

 

[DuxServit]

Sorry, but I think I’ll just pay Amir $100/year for now.

If Steve G. was serious, he could’ve done what Amir does today, perhaps starting 10 years ago or longer.

It’s not inconceivable that he has been seeing more references to ASR in other forums, or has been viewing the traffic here

 

[SIY]

Maybe Aczel was wrong. Perhaps Atkinson has changed?

No, Aczel (despite his often cringe-inducingly clumsy attempts at invective) was deadly accurate there. And based on the last couple of times I've seen JA speak, he's still dancing the same dance, and a damn lucrative one it is.

 

[Grave]

This forum and Amir's reviews are great so far. I would love to donate to this site if I had more money. If I get a better job, then I will donate. Please don't quit like NwAvGuy did.

 

[svart-hvitt]

No, Aczel (despite his often cringe-inducingly clumsy attempts at invective) was deadly accurate there. And based on the last couple of times I've seen JA speak, he's still dancing the same dance, and a damn lucrative one it is.

That’s what surprised me; that some hold JA in high esteem, while others don’t. We look at the same person, and some see good («white hat») and some see bad («black hat»).

I agree with you and Aczel. But I am perplexed that JA often gets praise from readers. Do we use different standards when measuring persons and their behaviour?

I also wonder, who is the most dangerous: The competent «black hat» or the incompetent «black hat»? Which is JA and Guttenberg?

 

[SIY]

Some hold Uri Geller, Paul Ehrlich, and Dr. Oz in high esteem. So what? it doesn't change who they are and what they do.

I'm only vaguely aware of who Steve Guttenberg is, so can't intelligently comment on your last question. But all in all, "high end" audio is such a tiny and shrinking niche that, compared with things like medical quackery, there's no real danger. The audience that they're enstupidating is exceedingly small and no-one is dying from their nonsense.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Some hold Uri Geller, Paul Ehrlich, and Dr. Oz in high esteem. So what? it doesn't change who they are and what they do.

I'm only vaguely aware of who Steve Guttenberg is, so can't intelligently comment on your last question. But all in all, "high end" audio is such a tiny and shrinking niche that, compared with things like medical quackery, there's no real danger. The audience that they're enstupidating is exceedingly small and no-one is dying from their nonsense.

My point came to the fore after observing just recently that an experienced guy wasn’t able to listen to what was said in a video because he apparently used his heuristics to disregard everything that comes from audio gear manufacturers and their R&D. So instead of listening to what was said, he based his reaction on a heuristic to disregard what comes from a manufacturer (in my view, the person and the manufacturer qualifies for «white hat»).

Therefore, it’s a good thing to have a grip on who are really «white hats» and who are «black hats» instead of believing everyone is white or everyone is black. I think that’s what late Aczel tried to do.

Because I believe there are more black hats around, ASR should maybe have a hall of fame list for white hats?

Neither Guttenberg nor JA would qualify for that list, but that’s really not for me to decide; it better be a sort of «peer review» among ASR readers to include white hats on such a list?

 

[Frank Dernie]

For me, JA is carefully navigating shark infested waters.
His measurements are what I subscribe to Stereophile for. He does often stop short of calling rubbish on some kit which clearly is if one of the writers gives it a glowing review, which I think is an inevitable result of the market and readership he is dealing with.
After all there would be more than one way of resigning but pointing out in clear terms to typical readers that popular kit which performs badly is junk would be one of the stupidest ways to do it.
When the majority of kit enthusiasts have swallowed subjective reviewing hook, line and sinker all JA can do (IMO) is to present the facts to those that care and can understand them but without commentary such that those that are a bit dim don't get up in arms and create the sort of furore Amir has created with Shiit enthusiasts, for example.

 

[Jinjuku]

For me, JA is carefully navigating shark infested waters.
His measurements are what I subscribe to Stereophile for. He does often stop short of calling rubbish on some kit which clearly is if one of the writers gives it a glowing review, which I think is an inevitable result of the market and readership he is dealing with.

JA's been active over at Computer Audiophile and it hasn't been going well for him. He put's himself in hard to defend positions and he pays the price. Because that's what happens when you choose the low ground. Go figure.

 

[Frank Dernie]

JA's been active over at Computer Audiophile and it hasn't been going well for him. He put's himself in hard to defend positions and he pays the price. Because that's what happens when you choose the low ground. Go figure.

I learned it is daft to be active on a forum you know something about when it is populated by fans 20 years ago!