Steve Guttenberg compares subjective and objective reviews

[SIY]

I think Steve would be interesting over a few beers. Telling hi-end audio salon stories. I think deep down inside Steve knows the score, that most of the 'high end' is goofball territory; but my guess is also that he's got a lot 'invested' in the nonsense, so has to keep up a front. Sort of like pro wrestlers used to have to do, before Vince exposed the game to everyone. At least that is my impression. But I'd like to listen to some of his stories over a few cool ones. He seems a nice and likable enough guy--in an oddball sort of way.

The word is "kayfabe." And I'm not sure that conscious dishonesty is better unconscious stupidity.

 

[anmpr1]

The word is "kayfabe." And I'm not sure that conscious dishonesty is better unconscious stupidity.

Conscious stupidity is the worst.

The thing is, everyone 'on the inside' knew the matches were a work. The point was to entertain an audience. With any kind of dramatic show (whther it's movies, TV, plays) the spectator has to go in suspending disbelief. Otherwise, it won't work. Unless we are talking duel to the death stuff, like the Roman Coliseum matches were supposed to be. But we don't have those now.

With high-end hi-fi manufacturers and dealers, my guess is that most 'on the inside' probably believe it's real, in spite of everything that demonstrates that it's a work. I'm sure a few of them know, but are just cynical, playing the role of carnival barker because at the end of the day it pays the bills.

But whose to say? It's like Jesse Ventura quipped somewhere: "Pro Wrestling fake? How can you fake a body slam? If you want to know a really fake sport, what about baseball? Ever wonder why the inning ends right before it's time to run the beer commercial!"

 

[Thomas savage]

I was only interested by racing cars for competition never modified road cars, however big the mods and rallying is very different from racing too.
The GT-R is a road car, just not a very suitable one for roads. I don't agree with you about engineering superiority at all, have you ever driven one? Having lots of electronic driver aids is not difficult nowadays.
I was lucky to have had sports cars when the roads were quiet. Nowadays there is almost never an occasion where the roads aren't congested.

I have , it's terribly dull, you should have a joypad not a steering wheel. I was set to buy one years ago , drove it for a bit and decided my 350z was more fun.

Im often driving on quite Devon country lanes early in the morning so there's plenty of fun still to be had for me at least... Exmoor can be fun too just as long as there's no livestock sleeping in the road ha ha

 

[Ron Texas]

I think Steve would be interesting over a few beers. Telling hi-end audio salon stories. I think deep down inside Steve knows the score, that most of the 'high end' is goofball territory; but my guess is also that he's got a lot 'invested' in the nonsense, so has to keep up a front. Sort of like pro wrestlers used to have to do, before Vince exposed the game to everyone. At least that is my impression. But I'd like to listen to some of his stories over a few cool ones. He seems a nice and likable enough guy--in an oddball sort of way.

I agree with that except that deep down I have no idea of what's going on.

 

[JJB70]

I think that most people who have enough interest in audio to have an opinion on the objective - subjective debate are somewhere on a spectrum rather than existing as absolute subjectivists or objectivist. I can't imagine there are many hard core subjectivists in complete denial of measurement or who swallow all the snake oil. Equally most objectivists would that if you just like something then enjoy it and don't get too worried about whether or not it measures particularly well. We're somewhere on a spectrum. I hate all the hocus pocus nonsense around cables, power supplies and various other snake oil and efforts to deny measured data. I am also a sucker for nice materials, tactile feel and VU meters and would happily pay a lot more for a JDS Atom in a deluxe metal case.
Because of the nature of subjectivism some reviewers do have terrific communication skills. Which means some of them probably are splendid company and a hoot to have a drink with. For all I hate much of what Paul Mcgowan says I suspect his book is a thoroughly enjoyable read.

 

[FrantzM]

I think that most people who have enough interest in audio to have an opinion on the objective - subjective debate are somewhere on a spectrum rather than existing as absolute subjectivists or objectivist. I can't imagine there are many hard core subjectivists in complete denial of measurement or who swallow all the snake oil. Equally most objectivists would that if you just like something then enjoy it and don't get too worried about whether or not it measures particularly well. We're somewhere on a spectrum. I hate all the hocus pocus nonsense around cables, power supplies and various other snake oil and efforts to deny measured data. I am also a sucker for nice materials, tactile feel and VU meters and would happily pay a lot more for a JDS Atom in a deluxe metal case.
Because of the nature of subjectivism some reviewers do have terrific communication skills. Which means some of them probably are splendid company and a hoot to have a drink with. For all I hate much of what Paul Mcgowan says I suspect his book is a thoroughly enjoyable read.

I mostly agree with you.. except for the part that I put in bold... They are legion. They seem to be the majority.

 

[SIY]

Because of the nature of subjectivism some reviewers do have terrific communication skills. Which means some of them probably are splendid company and a hoot to have a drink with. For all I hate much of what Paul Mcgowan says I suspect his book is a thoroughly enjoyable read.

You're a better man than I am. I'd just get furious at the dishonesty and throw the book across the room.

 

[JJB70]

You're a better man than I am. I'd just get furious at the dishonesty and throw the book across the room.

In my line of work you need a high tolerance to lies, bull sh*t and spin if you want to last out the first day In a funny old way I have professional respect for people who can spin their way out of any situation and sell sand in a desert

 

[yuki980e]

Because of the nature of subjectivism some reviewers do have terrific communication skills. Which means some of them probably are splendid company and a hoot to have a drink with. For all I hate much of what Paul Mcgowan says I suspect his book is a thoroughly enjoyable read.

I dunno quite a few online reviewers become assholes the moment you challenged there opinions or point out there ignorance. Like knocking points on a ER4SR for not being £1000+ or a bassy headphone??.

 

[JJB70]

I dunno quite a few online reviewers become assholes the moment you challenged there opinions or point out there ignorance. Like knocking points on a ER4SR for not being £1000+ or a bassy headphone??.

True, but in fairness that's hardly unique to any one group. I am a huge fan of Peter Aczel and still read his articles regularly but he could be pretty cutting when it came to subjectivism and snake oil peddlers. OK I think he was perfectly justified in his comments and I couldn't help enjoying them but nevertheless he could be rather personal at times.

PS I love my Etymotic ER4 SR IEMs.

 

[yuki980e]

True, but in fairness that's hardly unique to any one group. I am a huge fan of Peter Aczel and still read his articles regularly but he could be pretty cutting when it came to subjectivism and snake oil peddlers. OK I think he was perfectly justified in his comments and I couldn't help enjoying them but nevertheless he could be rather personal at times.

PS I love my Etymotic ER4 SR IEMs.

I know, i just meaning that few make me question how they got mild to semi high popularity. I've only had the ER4 for under a year, i find it hard to believe how much misinformation they spread. The Head Fi ER4 thread is just a boring DD vs BA war by a few who just parrot what they heard, Like overhyping the ER2SE/XR when the ER4SR/XR still win out. With the ER2 using the same shell as the ER4, It would be funny how a IEM DBT would pan out.

 

[Thomas savage]

With my impending move to the suburbs, I'm looking at buying an MX-5 but, with a kid on the way, may have to get a Mazda 3 instead.

Congratulations! Life's over but still congrats .

 

[Eurasian]

With my impending move to the suburbs, I'm looking at buying an MX-5 but, with a kid on the way, may have to get a Mazda 3 instead.

My wife and I had a 911 Targa when our younger boys were little. The rear "seats" were the perfect size for kid's car seats, but useless for adults to sit in. After that car we bought an original Miata -- great fun and no room for kid's!

 

[audiophile]

New video on the same topic:

 

[peanuts]

let him get an education on measurements, then do a new video. ofcourse its not gonne happen ever.

 

[Yuhasz01]

let him get an education on measurements, then do a new video. ofcourse its not gonne happen ever.

Three variables in this enduring debate: audio devices, room acoustics and our ears/brain sound perception. Any reviews that do not address all three, to some degree , are not that helpful.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Three variables in this enduring debate: audio devices, room acoustics and our ears/brain sound perception. Any reviews that do not address all three, to some degree , are not that helpful.

I agree with the first two but the third is oft used but is a red herring IMO.
Sound is pressure fluctuations and as long as the hifi gets the pressure fluctuation right the method of perception is irrelevant, even if every person differs since each will be using their normal method of perception to listen even if it differs from everybody else.

 

[amirm]

New video on the same topic:

Hmmm. In the first video he says he has friends that are reviewers that measure so he doesn't want to insult them. In this one, he calls such people "dope!" I kind of like being called the dope than his friend.

 

[amper42]

I bought Magnepan LRS that Guttenberg highly recommended. I waited months for them to arrive and they were junk to my ears. They worked OK with Diana Krall tracks as long as I didn't mind the reverb. But compared to my other speakers they were super low resolution. Guttenberg will claim they just weren't for me but never suggest he misled anyone. I would have known better if Amir's review had been available before I placed my order.

It's a big gamble buying anything based on a subjective review. You don't have a clue what you will get. Personal taste runs all over the gamut. What you like, I may hate or visa versa. A subjective review has no value at all. On the other hand, a speaker with flat response and high measurement scores is a lot less of a gamble. If you like a flat response you will most likely be happy with it. The problem is we don't have unlimited access to try Hi Fi gear so we go on-line to get a review from someone who has tried it. When the person makes a living by keeping the audio companies happy you can be assured the odds of a fair review are not always in your favor.

Bottom line - I don't use subjective professional audio reviews to buy anything anymore. I look at measurements and find them helpful... but a Guttenberg review is nothing but giggles and foolish entertainment.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

What I find interesting about subjective reviews/reviewers is that they will say such-and-such amplifier / preamp or whatever is designed to be absolutely neutral and not have a 'sound' of its own, and they apparently believe this to be fact. Then what is the point of doing a subjective review in the first place if its designed to not exhibit subjective attributes? My head hurts.