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Steve Guttenberg: Are you truth seeker or pleasure seeker?
- Thread starter Enkay25
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That could be, but I'd add a caveat: Those seeking gear transparency, vetted through measurements.
Most audiophiles are seeking every more "transparency" to the source - that's the selling point for most audiophile gear. You don't see high end companies usually say "We are selling you a coloration" but rather "our gear gets you closer to the source, and here's why..."
The difference IMO is how someone vets these claims. If you seek verification through measurements, and find something that meets those measurements, then you can in principle rest easy knowing you met your goal.
If you are evaluating claims of transparency subjectively, then you are subject to your own shifts in perception (and that of reviewers etc), which can keep you chasing your goal.
That said, even though there is the audiophile cliche of going through lots of gear, I'd guess lots of us here have done so. And having seen numerous threads and polls on this topic in more subjectivist-oriented forums, I'm surprised at how many of those audiophiles found satisfaction as well. Plenty have stuck with the same gear for a great many years.
Marantz AV gear includes a adjustable option called M-DAX,
"Compressed audio formats such as MP3, WMA (Windows Media Audio)
and MPEG-4 AAC reduce the amount of data by eliminating signal
components that are hard for the human ear to hear. The “M-DAX”
function generates the signals eliminated upon compression, restoring the
sound to conditions near those of the original sound before compression.
It also restores the original bass characteristics for a rich and expanded
tonal range."
MRC01
Major Contributor
Quote from the Magnepan 3.6/R user manual: New Magneplanar MG3.6/R speakers will not display their full bass potential. After a month or two of use the bass response will lower 5Hz or more. At this point the response will stabilize and the speakers rated performance (or better) can be realized.
GrimSurfer
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I don't think that Mangepan is saying this for marketing advantage. If anything, they're releasing loudspeaker that have not been burned in, thereby saving labor costs. Regardless, they are providing a performance figure (5 Hz FR) that can be pretty easily checked by those who wish to do so.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
The article basically concludes that the box impact on driver compliance overrides the mechanical issues.
Fair enough.
But what about tweeters?
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
I'd have to disagree with that statement. Truth is easy to pursue, reading the measured reviews here and elsewhere can give you peace of mind that your gear is delivering a transparent sound. Pursuing beauty and belief in magic dust is the road to "audiophilia nervosa and obsession"
I think a lot depends on your frame of mind and reference.
If you fall into the trap of "what I prefer = closer to truth", yes it's a path to insanity and magical belief systems.
On the other hand, if you realize "I can't replicate [or often even know] the system the recording engineers used", and therefore in-room truth is elusive, it can give you a freer hand to tailor the sound without going insane.
After all, room EQ, which is mostly thought of as "good" by objectivists, is tailoring the sound to your personal acoustic experience / room / compromises and almost certainly results in the sound being different from what the mastering engineering heard in the room / studio in which they made the mix, on different speakers.
If I get a perfect room EQ (@RayDunzl seems to be good at getting flat), is that closer to the truth the recording engineers heard? Maybe sometimes?
But based on the number of recording engineers that the Toole tests showed had damaged hearing, there is room for doubt.
MRC01
Major Contributor
I agree their note doesn't sound like marketing BS. Their factory specifications seem conservatively realistic. After 20 years of near daily use mine still perform to specification according to my in-room measurements.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Actually, I think they do say this, but they use code words:
liquid
organic
natural
musical
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Also:
Planars are not boxes.
The argument that the box loading effect on system compliance overrides small suspension changes in dynamic drivers doesn't really apply so easily to planar magnetics.
That's not saying break in is more or less, but the systems are different.
Analog
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
That, too.
Robin L
Master Contributor
I have a confession to make.
All these Urban Audio Mythologies of which you speak? Bought into all of them, one way or another. Cable differences, interconnect differences, analog, tubes, LPs, solder, premium caps, premium resistors, burn-in, all that folklore? Bought into it. All of it. Good thing I'm a natural heretic.
But there's one audio consequence of my tweakery that was audibly stark to these ears, wonder if anyone else experienced this phenom.
I'd internally rewire speakers. I mean, look inside, check out the crap wire and crappier connectors—what's a poor boy to do but to pull out his soldering iron and have at it? And, yes, I was into tweaky wire, thank you very much. Not ultra-tweaky, I'm not an Oligarch. A local outlet's 12 gauge, silver-clad stranded 6 9s copper would suffice.
So, for a while, hardwired speaker cable to various connectors. The weird audio I speak of was noticing that the sound was very different for the first 24 hours or so after the soldering. More forceful at both frequency extremes, more dynamic. This leveled out over about three days.
I'm willing to cop to the potentially psychotropic effects of solder fumes, but I was wondering if this has any technical explanation?
All these Urban Audio Mythologies of which you speak? Bought into all of them, one way or another. Cable differences, interconnect differences, analog, tubes, LPs, solder, premium caps, premium resistors, burn-in, all that folklore? Bought into it. All of it. Good thing I'm a natural heretic.
But there's one audio consequence of my tweakery that was audibly stark to these ears, wonder if anyone else experienced this phenom.
I'd internally rewire speakers. I mean, look inside, check out the crap wire and crappier connectors—what's a poor boy to do but to pull out his soldering iron and have at it? And, yes, I was into tweaky wire, thank you very much. Not ultra-tweaky, I'm not an Oligarch. A local outlet's 12 gauge, silver-clad stranded 6 9s copper would suffice.
So, for a while, hardwired speaker cable to various connectors. The weird audio I speak of was noticing that the sound was very different for the first 24 hours or so after the soldering. More forceful at both frequency extremes, more dynamic. This leveled out over about three days.
I'm willing to cop to the potentially psychotropic effects of solder fumes, but I was wondering if this has any technical explanation?
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Even if there was an effect other than psychological, why would you do it?
I imagine the following dialog:
Demon on Shoulder: "I bet I can make these speakers sound better by changing the wiring."
Angel on Shoulder: "That will either do nothing or change the voicing of the speaker. If you don't like the voicing why did you buy it?"
Demon on Shoulder: "I don't like the voicing in my system...the designer didn't account for my room and gear."
Angel on Shoulder: "Okay, fair point...but then why not just use EQ to tailor the sound to your room / gear?"
Demon on Shoulder: "EQ is bad, I'm a purist...."
Angel on Shoulder: "What about the wire in the voice coils? Or the wires in the amp? If your theory has merit, everything will have to be ripped out and replaced..."
Demon on Shoulder: "Just shut up and let me try this. I won't hurt anything...."
Angel on Shouder: "I sometimes wish you had less insane vices, like drinking, gambling, or hookers...."
Well if the factory connections were really poor, possibly.
But otherwise, nope.
Robin L
Master Contributor
Do You Suffer From Audiophilus Nervosa?
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Me?
I've never rewired the inside of a speaker and I use pretty generic Canare style cables.
My vinyl gets converted to digital before playback and it doesn't bother me.
I like to tube roll my phono MM + SUT stage for fun, but I also enjoy using the DSP RIAA in my Devialet.
I spend more time curating my record collection than futzing with my stereo.
So what's your diagnosis?
Quad does not instruct its ESL(mylar-film panel speakers) buyers to burn them in. Yes, film-panel speakers are a very different case than conventional cone type speakers.
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In my earlier post I mentioned Magnepan as the only speaker that had significant change past the initial few minutes. Being a Maggie owner, I was very curious to see if that was the case. I no longer have the data; IIRC, the LF corner frequency did shift down a bit through perhaps the first ten hours of play or so but was very little after that. It was many years ago; I think the majority of the shift was in the first hour or so with very gradual change after that. As @GrimSurfer said it's a different material so cannot be compared to a conventional driver. Listening tests (DBTs) conducted through the tests did not demonstrate that anyone could actually hear the change, FWIW. At the end we ran some tests with the broken-in and a new speaker (MG-IIIa) and nobody could tell which was the "broken-in" speaker.
We had Quads in the test but I do not recall their frequency response changing. I can think of (guess at) a lot of reasons but do not actually know why not. Different materials (type of membrane, thickness), different membrane attachment/suspension, different frequency response, fundamentally different designs (ESL vs. planar magnetic), etc.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
I conclude nothing, really, especially since Martin Logan does encourage break-in for their non-hybrid CLX ESLs....
"Break-In Proper break in will improve bass extension. The high quality components used in our electrostatic panels may cause your CLX speakers to sound a bit bass shy when they are first used. CLX requires approximately 100 hours of break-in at 90 dB (moderate listening levels) before any critical listening. The break-in requirements of the crossover components are equivalent."
https://www.martinlogan.com/uploads/documents/manuals/manual_clx.pdf
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