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Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

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HuubFranssen

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That is the best written backhanded insult I have read in quite some time. Well done Sir. (Bolded by me)

Well thanks! I always thought that my English was not so good.

By the way: don’t take it too serious. At the other hand, Stereophile lovers will be very pleased looking at the reactions in this topic.

I keep wondering why the subjective observations of Amir (i.e. JBL HDI1600, Neumann KH420) can be so accurate while his followers burn down everyone that dear to have their own observation.

It looks like there is an upper class of people that can decide for the poor: the ones not willing to screw up their lives doing blind tests but just use their ears. And then post an observation, trying to avoid the word ‘truth’.
 

raif71

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Can we start a donation campaign here - pool our money and buy the squarewavereview.com domain so pma can properly pursue his true passion instead of having to hitch his wagon to whatever the current hot thread here is?
 

Geert

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I keep wondering why the subjective observations of Amir (i.e. JBL HDI1600, Neumann KH420) can be so accurate while his followers burn down everyone that dear to have their own observation.

Measurements indicate speakers sound different, and people have spend a lifetime studying the sound of speakers. When you make claims about devices that measure audible transparent, that's a whole different story. And where's the "burning down" happening? We only ask you to make sure your observations are accurate. If you manage to perform a controlled test that's shows you can differentiate between the 2 DAC's you mentioned you'll gain the highest respect over here.
 
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hvbias

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Physicians and scientists are human and have character flaws. There have been so many articles that have been withdrawn due to shenanigans by the researcher.
The fact that stereophile took a swipe at ASR tells me that they are afraid. Elephants don't care about dogs barking.

Character "flaws" lol, no it's called enjoying life. Last night I was relistening to the adagio from Beethoven's op. 59/2 on my ESL57 and it was among the very best 15 minutes I'd experienced that week, nearly moved to tears. Of course thank Beethoven for that, but it was in no small part due to the most realistic sounding speakers I've heard for acoustic instruments. I removed my LSR 306 MK2 from my office with the intent to try the mono speaker experiment (haven't got around to it yet), so the next day I decided to play that string quartet again on the LSR 306 in stereo. Perfectly fine listening experience though with quite a few flaws (still the very greatest bargain in all of audio for what I paid), but overall a rather flat experience that had me pulling out my phone wondering what was going on with TSLA earnings, news, etc.

As for being threatened by ASR, what percent of people that are subjectivists actually become objectivists? If I put a number on it 5% might be generous. I've been on several hifi boards where they eventually create a science/measurements subforum and there is virtually no intermixing between the groups of people that post on that and the main forums.

I'd say the bigger reason I have seen people on the other side getting upset is the level of arrogance and not uncommonly flat out contempt people here have for others that aren't like them (I am not saying this is a one way street). Saying someone has "character flaws" might sound like a benign comment but it truly isn't.

And lest I be marked as some hardcore numpty subjectivist, my posts on ASR are nearly all about my primary interest in speakers, directivity, even bass response in room, etc. And I've read Toole's second edition cover to cover before this forum ever existed. I mostly realize that in life something is almost never a 1 or 0, and there is far more nuance to things than that.
 

HuubFranssen

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Measurements indicate speakers sound different, and people have spend a lifetime studying the sound of speakers. When you make claims about devices that measure audible transparent, that's a whole different story. And where's the "burning down"? We only ask you to make sure your observations are accurate. If you manage to perform a controlled test that's shows you can differentiate between the 2 DAC's you mentioned you'll gain the highest respect over here.

When I write about an observation it is not a ‘claim’. And many observations do mean something. I can perfectly accept that this forum likes objectivity. My problem is that as a result there are a lot of followers thinking that the cheapest Topping dac and the most expensive sound identical, but only differ in features. The common sense here is therefore that the D90se is much too expensive. And all reviewers that dare to hear a difference are ridiculed.

The Stereophile text is a just a reaction to that. This has nothing to do with Amir, everyone takes his measurements serious. And when they don’t like it the next version is better or they try to figure out why there is a difference between hearing and measuring. Perfect.
 

Vacceo

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When I write about an observation it is not a ‘claim’. And many observations do mean something. I can perfectly accept that this forum likes objectivity. My problem is that as a result there are a lot of followers thinking that the cheapest Topping dac and the most expensive sound identical, but only differ in features. The common sense here is therefore that the D90se is much too expensive. And all reviewers that dare to hear a difference are ridiculed.

The Stereophile text is a just a reaction to that. This has nothing to do with Amir, everyone takes his measurements serious. And when they don’t like it the next version is better or they try to figure out why there is a difference between hearing and measuring. Perfect.
I also hear Abbadon the Lord of Hell asking me to spill the blood of the innocent. I can be very serious about my statement, yet, you'll probably ask for proof of those voices in my head. And rightfully so.
 

Geert

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When I write about an observation it is not a ‘claim’.

"A claim is your argument. Claims are statements of belief that can be argued against. Evidence is your proof. Evidence comes from sources, fieldwork, and
research. It proves that your logical support (i.e. your reasons) is valid support for your statement or belief (i.e. your
claim)".

Where's the proof for your claim? Or are you also going to redefine language and the principles of rational thinking?
 

Zaireeka

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the cheapest Topping dac and the most expensive sound identical
Why is the price of the device such an important criteria?
 

Geert

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When you want proof of everything, soon there will be no communication anymore.

There's a time and place for everything. You're communicating your message in the wrong place. This community respects scientific principles and appreciates proof. Is it OK for you to have one audio forum in the world that values these principles? If not we'll ask Amir to shut it down?
 
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Vacceo

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I also wonder why the communication in magazines systematically benefits extremely expensive gear, the level that makes McIntosh affordable.
 

AdamG

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When I write about an observation it is not a ‘claim’. And many observations do mean something. I can perfectly accept that this forum likes objectivity. My problem is that as a result there are a lot of followers thinking that the cheapest Topping dac and the most expensive sound identical, but only differ in features. The common sense here is therefore that the D90se is much too expensive. And all reviewers that dare to hear a difference are ridiculed.

The Stereophile text is a just a reaction to that. This has nothing to do with Amir, everyone takes his measurements serious. And when they don’t like it the next version is better or they try to figure out why there is a difference between hearing and measuring. Perfect.
Just guard against putting every member of ASR in the same category. Doing that is a total misunderstanding of the broad spectrum of mindsets here. The same goes for categorizing all Stereophile followers as subjectivists. Broad brushing is never accurate and only used to strengthen a weak argument.
 

Koeitje

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Stereophile is a collection of different people and just as with any group of people they are not all the same. @John Atkinson has been an advocate of measurements for decades now (although I find him sometimes to lenient, but I guess you have to be in a commercial endeavour). @Kal Rubinson also always has had a down to earth approach.
 

kokakolia

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I also wonder why the communication in magazines systematically benefits extremely expensive gear, the level that makes McIntosh affordable.
More expensive gear is typically better. So if you're clueless when reviewing equipment, then McIntosh is a safe bet. Everyone agrees that it sounds good with badly and well-recorded music. Recommending McIntosh is easy. Too bad the prices are too darn high!
 

krabapple

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Mostly true, except the cynical part. The ‘unsupported belief’ is not unsupported at all; a lot of people that rely on their own ears. They have to, not everyone has a Toole recommended carousel of speakers, behind cloths, to select their favourite speaker blind.

The people listening to the Toole carousel are relying on their own ears too.

So, what's the difference?

Your actual stance is that 'sighted' reliance on one's own ears is as valuable as measurements. This is the core of your mistake. You keep neglecting the fact that in a 'sighted' evaluation, you are not relying ONLY on the evidence of your ears.

Sighted evaluation is 'how we do it', typically. But 'practicality' is no argument for it being on equal footing with measurements or blind listening. Its flaws must inform and temper the claims made about the *sound*
 

teched58

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Well thanks! I always thought that my English was not so good.
It's not, though it's much better than my (nonexistent) Dutch. The correct way to render your very witty insult would be "measurement heroes." (That is, "measurement" instead of "measure.")

A hyphen is only needed when the sentence becomes ambiguous without it. So "I laugh at measurement heroes" doesn't need a hyphen. But "Measurement-heroes laugh at me and I laugh back at them" would require the hyphen.

I am being a bit pedantic, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. These days, most native English speakers who don't write or edit for a living would use the hyphen all the time. Indeed, most native English speakers who don't write or edit for a living make up their spelling and grammar as they go along, and get as angry as a Stereophile editor if/when you correct them. Which means that actually, your written English, Mr. Franssen, is probably as good as 50% of the college graduates in the US and 80% of those exiting high school.
 
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More expensive gear is typically better. So if you're clueless when reviewing equipment, then McIntosh is a safe bet. Everyone agrees that it sounds good with badly and well-recorded music. Recommending McIntosh is easy. Too bad the prices are too darn high!

The price of equipment has nothing to do with its performance level. That's an old, old con. And anything that sounds "good" with badly-recorded music is not neutral and not accurate. The primary purpose of audio equipment is to reproduce the input signal. If you don't like that, then you can choose apps that modify the sound,. including whole circuits that modify the sound. But that is your choice, and made after accuracy has been obtained by the manufacturer. The manufacturer, after all, didn't know your particular desires when the circuit was designed.

And ..... your particular desires may change. Next year, new speakers, room remodeling, changes in your hearing ...... all those things (and more) could radically change the opinions that you hold dear today. It happens.

Jim
 

captainbeefheart

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wonder whether a similar investigation has been done with amplifiers. I’d imagine it to be very difficult, since the amount of IMD is tiny compared to a violin.

The study was only done with amplifiers as they were trying to find an electronic way to replace the Leslie speaker and add vibrato/tremolo to an organ or other instruments where you can't wiggle the string and don't require a rotating speaker which was a nightmare to lug around.

They knew the effect came from amplitude modulation and frequency modulation but were trying to determine the audible effects of both to blind listeners to get their impressions. Almost all found AM to be the easiest to implement and gives the exact effect they were looking for without the complexity of going FM. Technically speaking FM is a change of pitch like using the whammy bar on a Fender Stratocaster and AM was like rolling the volume control up and down while playing, both techniques very tough to accomplish so an electronic effects would be a very popular feature. Leo Fender was working on FM for his amps but quickly changed over to AM as it was much easier to accomplish electrically. All he did was setup a triode with feedback criteria for oscillation which created the low frequency oscillator which is around 6-8Hz and this modulation frequency is sent to an optocoupler which changes it's resistance at the rate of the oscillation, the changing resistance was part of a divider network in the preamp section which ended up changing signal volume. Some other similar designs would modulate the bias of the power tubes for similar results.
 
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