Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

[Mr. E. Guy]

It is an odd combination, and pretty rare outside the really large companies. Purifi is a small player in the scheme of things, so to go all out with driver manufacture as well as amplifier boards/modules is unusual and brave. Especially with such a small range and supplying bare drivers only- no complete speaker systems (where the real profit is). That said, they are clearly trying to make back their R&D really fast at the prices they charge.

Most loudspeaker companies don't make their own drivers- they outsource manufacture to existing OEMs.

Even if it is a rare combination, in terms of R&D and manufacturing, in my view, it is not an odd combination. It is a logical combination. This is supported by the point you make, that really large companies invest in both capabilities. That's where the money is.

 

[Rednaxela]

From the article:

Bruno Putzeys […] told me that when they started Purifi, the main idea was to correct hi-fi problems with DSP—digital signal processing. They soon changed course and started to use science and engineering to attack some of those problems at the source. A result is the Eigentakt module used in some of the best current class-D amplifiers.

This is rubbish.

Whatever Bruno told the author, this is a dreamt up version of it. Especially the and started to use science and engineering part is a nasty, nasty move. Yuck.

Stopped reading right there sorry.

 

[Count Arthur]

From the article:



This is rubbish.

Whatever Bruno told the author, this is a dreamt up version of it. Especially the and started to use science and engineering part is a nasty, nasty move. Yuck.

Stopped reading right there sorry.

Has anyone ever built anything electronic, that worked, without science and engineering?

I reckon if you gave a group of the best fine art painters and sculptors a big box of electronics components and a soldering iron, they wouldn't produce a working amplifier, or the complete works of Shakespeare, for that matter.

 

[tomtoo]

From the article:



This is rubbish.

Whatever Bruno told the author, this is a dreamt up version of it. Especially the and started to use science and engineering part is a nasty, nasty move. Yuck.

Stopped reading right there sorry.

That jump is hard to follow, isnt DSP science and engineering? So they changed from science and engineering to science and engineering???
Strange language this person uses.

 

[Marc v E]

We were the exclusive launch partner for Purifi amplifier by their choice! Bet Jim didn't know that.

Love it. I personally think it's a great compliment that he tries to attack ASR and our methods. It means me make an impact and are too influential to be ignored. Which is confirmed by your post above.

 

[JanesJr1]

HiFi is a hobby which is going to be in serious trouble in the next 10 or so years when most of its customer base (old men) die off. Although there are younger people taking up the hobby, there is not going to be enough of them to stave off a drastic change in the fortunes of high end audio companies. HiFi just isn't all that compelling a hobby to the average person today.

With a falloff of the hobby, Stereophile and its ilk are doomed.

I'm curious, are there studies out there that validate this?

For example, although the boomers are going to die off, their millenial children are an even bigger cohort, and will be reaching their peak earning years (perhaps belatedly) starting in the late 2020's. Will that help offset the outflow? I don't know, just asking.

Also, taking in the field as a whole, suppose it is true that there will be less interest in megabuck equipment. (I don;t know that; this is a hypothetical.) The contrary trend is that it has never been cheaper to become an audiophile.

I used to spend $1000's in the 1980's-90's for LP's and then CD's. Now I have 95 million lossless recordings available for $7.99/month on Amazon HD, and many (if not all) are as good or better than the original CD's or LP's.

Since when could you get low distortion, straight-wire-with-gain dac's and amps for less money? So much improvement.

And markets are now not just USA and Europe, they are global, with billions (yes with a "b") of people gradually upgrading their living standards toward and into the consumer class. (This research I'm more familiar with.) Is it possible that many of them will enjoy recorded music well enough to look beyond their phones? And will some of them become hobbyists, or status conscious?

(For example, did the emergence of Chi-Fi happen because of Western markets? Topping doesn't even have a service presence here. But they sure do in the Far East.)

Again, I'm just asking, is there some useful research on this out there? Is there some evidence that today's kids don't take up an interest in hi-fi once they establish careers and start nesting? I'm just not familiar with it and I'm curious.

 

[Rednaxela]

Has anyone ever built anything electronic, that worked, without science and engineering?

Exactly.

Not wanting to idolise anyone too much, but based on what I know about the man and his work, Bruno is an absolute beast in this regard.

 

[Marc v E]

I read the article and couldn't stop smiling.

It's so obvious the author is out of his league when he talks about what he heard from the Purify engineers. Having read the blog posts by Bruno myself, I get the impression he tries to fit what Bruno said into his hifi dogmas, but is clearly having trouble doing that.

The irony of it is so delicious. Purify must be one of the most scientific hifi companies around. They measure everything. They even engineered an automatic measuring device for speaker prototypes.

What sets them apart is that they take their time to resolve big problems (mainly in speaker drivers) that have been there and have been ignored for a long time. Kudos to them and their rigorous approach. And to Peter Lyngdorf for being involved in yet another hifi company (probably being the main sponsor).

 

[Katji]

It's so obvious the author is out of his league when he talks about what he heard from the Purify engineers. Having read the blog posts by Bruno myself, I get the impression he tries to fit what Bruno said into his hifi dogmas, but is clearly having trouble doing that.

Yes. Assuming that person was an engineer. Just something one of them said in a conversation with him, and then he interpreted it, made something of it to suit his purpose.

 

[Plcamp]

Has anyone ever built anything electronic, that worked, without science and engineering?

It’s possible. Having been part of a team that developed connectivity analysis SW to detect schematic defects on very high speed designs, I have to answer “yes” to this question. It is entirely possible with todays CAD tools for a ‘designer’ to get something right, but not really understand why they succeeded. What they don’t achieve is fully optimized results (such as timing margins, signal integrity and electromagnetic immunity).

I suppose that is because the engineering has been done inside the device designs and CAD software the less than fully capable designer has used.

The most successful designers…those that hit first pass design success with consistency…could predict the margins they would achieve before sending designs to us for analysis and measurement. Those were the folks that didn’t “copy, paste, prototype and hope”, opting instead for extensive upfront simulations.

 

[Rednaxela]

I'm curious, are there studies out there that validate this?

For example, although the boomers are going to die off, their millenial children are an even bigger cohort, and will be reaching their peak earning years (perhaps belatedly) starting in the late 2020's. Will that help offset the outflow? I don't know, just asking.

Also, taking in the field as a whole, suppose it is true that there will be less interest in megabuck equipment. (I don;t know that; this is a hypothetical.) The contrary trend is that it has never been cheaper to become an audiophile.

I used to spend $1000's in the 1980's-90's for LP's and then CD's. Now I have 95 million lossless recordings available for $7.99/month on Amazon HD, and many (if not all) are as good or better than the original CD's or LP's.

Since when could you get low distortion, straight-wire-with-gain dac's and amps for less money? So much improvement.

And markets are now not just USA and Europe, they are global, with billions (yes with a "b") of people gradually upgrading their living standards toward and into the consumer class. (This research I'm more familiar with.) Is it possible that many of them will enjoy recorded music well enough to look beyond their phones? And will some of them be hobbiests, or status conscious?

(For example, did the emergence of Chi-Fi happen because of Western markets? Topping doesn't even have a service presence here. But they sure do in the Far East.)

Again, I'm just asking, is there some useful research on this out there? Is there some evidence that today's kids don't take up an interest in hi-fi once they establish careers and start nesting? I'm just not familiar with it and I'm curious.

This deserves its own thread!

 

[telemike]

Some or Many Steve Hoffman Forums users think ASR is a religious cult as well

ASR’s basic premise, better measuring = better sounding is flawed. What follows is a bunch of cultist nonsense.

ASR is a forum for fanatics. as such there is a heavy bias towards a particular dogma. this forum is the polar opposite and generally polite and supportive. ASR is instead a close minded group of fanatics that are obsessed measurements only. its by far the least helpful and least fun audio forum around.

Research done using measurements on test equipment. No test equipment can measure everything humans can hear. And some operators of that test equipment, like ASR, make errant measurements.

Quite, I mean Amir and ASR has built a reputation as a "myth buster" and as such is hardly a neutral scientist approaching testing open-mindedly. Furthermore, if we go by the bible of ASR then we would all just use $200 Chinese DACs (they measure the best according to Amir) and $5 Costco cables (expensive cables are a waste of money according to Amir). In fact the forum threads on ASR are unsurprisingly reminiscent of some of the posts on this thread - Amir reviews and lambasts a product (if it isn't a cheap Chinese DAC), his followers go onto the thread lauding him with god-like praise and laughing at the poor fools who would buy such a product, bathing in their perceived superiority for "seeing the light". Sound familiar? The irony is that when you look at the gear list of posters on this and other threads who adopt the objectivist approach and laud ASR, I don't see them using those same cheap Chinese DACs that ASR bangs on about measuring so well and I often see expensive cables listed in their gear list. Seems they don't always practice what they preach.

Why? ASR knows how to measure everything but knows the value of very little, it seems. Like a kid given a ruler for the first time, running around measuring the world and casting judgement and deciding its worth. Right. Being able to measure something does not make you an engineer. Give him/ASR time. Maybe one day he'll grow up.

ASR doesn't review equipment with human ears. They use machines.

 

[mhardy6647]

I was taking delivery of some secret DACs....

Vacuum tube DACs

I'm on to youse guyses.



PS All those patch cords? Nordost.

 

[Rednaxela]

No test equipment can measure everything humans can hear.

Misconception or not, this is the key. Everything else follows from it.

 

[Rednaxela]

By the way, I think me ‘helping’ you by recommending a cable I thought sounded miles better than yours is essentially cultist. Helpful but cultist nonetheless.

 

[FrantzM]

Vacuum tube DACs

I'm on to youse guyses.



PS All those patch cords? Nordost.

Can you imagine the kind of "organic", "warm", "mellow", "natural" "realistic" soundstage one could obtain with those?

 

[Plcamp]

Misconception or not, this is the key. Everything else follows from it.

If the last word was “perceive”, it would make sense.

Otherwise, no human can hear anything that cannot be detected by measurement.

 

[DanielT]

It’s possible. Having been part of a team that developed connectivity analysis SW to detect schematic defects on very high speed designs, I have to answer “yes” to this question. It is entirely possible with todays CAD tools for a ‘designer’ to get something right, but not really understand why they succeeded. What they don’t achieve is fully optimized results (such as timing margins, signal integrity and electromagnetic immunity).

I suppose that is because the engineering has been done inside the device designs and CAD software the less than fully capable designer has used.

The most successful designers…those that hit first pass design success with consistency…could predict the margins they would achieve before sending designs to us for analysis and measurement. Those were the folks that didn’t “copy, paste, prototype and hope”, opting instead for extensive upfront simulations.

I succeed to wash my clothes without really knowing in detail how my washing machine is constructed.

 

[Rednaxela]

Measurements or it didn’t happen.

 

[Waxx]

Misconception or not, this is the key. Everything else follows from it.

Well, i think not everything that is important is tested here (or at least shown in the results Amir presents). But it can be done, and even with that, his testing is the most complete of all those i know, and i can deduct from what he shows if something that is not tested is good or not (phase alignment of drivers for instance). But i got insight in how speakers work and how to build them, many here not. On the other hand, if something is wrong and not shown in the results, the rest of the results will also not be good so the speaker will get a low rating anyway. So it's not that important for the end result. But it would be nice to have that info also.

But in any way, the tests and reviews of Amir and other on this site tell me way more than any other, and are a big step forwards into objective reviews of gear. And that is a great thing, even if it's not perfect. Those other sites/fora mentioned here only tell me what is availeble and in fashion.