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Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

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Mr. E. Guy

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I just remembered that not so long ago I read an article written by Jim Austin. As I managed to find it let me quote first few paragraphs from it:
Phones were also simpler back in the day! All you had to worry about is 10 digits and the two funny shapes. Lol, who is so unlucky that nothing they buy works, not even the fridge?

Maybe he needs to swap out the power cords on all his kitchen appliances, try a $10,000 option on that fridge, see if that fixes it.
 

kokakolia

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This "article" is not so new as yesterdays dating to the internet posting makes it seem.
It is the same one that was used in Stereophile's Aug issue "As We See It".
In any case sideways stabs at ASR like this have been going on for around 2 years now.
It only serves to put a smile on my face, as it reveals how scared they are at the penetration we've make
into their subjective fairytale review community in a short 6 years.
Even Mikey Fremer has gone running to (no measurements allowed) TAS , the real bible of the subjective believers cult.
I doubt that ASR is a threat to Stereophile. ASR focuses on entry-level products and Stereophile is high-end.

I always come back to Devialet as an example. They're known for selling exorbitantly expensive amplifiers. Now they sell Bluetooth speakers and soundbars with fat bass. They're like Beats by Dre but French and classy.

The Boomers are dying and Stereophile did a poor job at captivating younger audiences. They had opportunities with rappers, ravers and vinyl junkies.
 

captainbeefheart

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Even Mikey Fremer has gone running to (no measurements allowed) TAS , the real bible of the subjective believers cult.

The Absolute Sound makes my skin crawl just from the first page you get when you hit the website.

"Editors' Choice" has strict high price tag requirements directly linked to the selection. Why do loudspeakers need to cost over $100,000.00 in order to make the "Editors' Choice" list? We can't find a decent speaker for less? It's disgusting and meant to separate the haves from the have nots, that's it plain and simple and little to do with actual performance. Once you understand that it becomes a lot easier to decide which publication you will entrust to research your next purchases. By all means if you are in the elite earners group spend your money as you see fit but where I come from someones wealth that is used for the greater good of the community is more a hero than some jerk bragging about how much his speakers cost.
 

Dial

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But go ahead, register on Stereophile and post a rebuttal, let's see if they publish it.
You'll be banished like I was. Miraculously, I'm still on analog planet (thanx Mikey !), largely for new music, the phono inputs pompously baptized preamps (even though they're passive equalizers) costing more than $20,000 don't interest me so much.
Recently they have made several attempts to place cables at no cost.
 

Geert

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It is rather unfortunate, then, that you named the site Audio Science Review

Engineering is a form of applied science. From Wikipedia: "Applied science is the use of the scientific method and knowledge obtained via conclusions from the method to attain practical goals.[1] It includes a broad range of disciplines such as engineering and medicine". It means that this community appreciates information backed by science
 
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Waxx

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I doubt that ASR is a threat to Stereophile. ASR focuses on entry-level products and Stereophile is high-end.

I always come back to Devialet as an example. They're known for selling exorbitantly expensive amplifiers. Now they sell Bluetooth speakers and soundbars with fat bass. They're like Beats by Dre but French and classy.

The Boomers are dying and Stereophile did a poor job at captivating younger audiences. They had opportunities with rappers, ravers and vinyl junkies.
The thing is, they claim to rate the best sounding and technically best stuff, and certainly on that latest one, ASR pushed them out. But the measurements tell me (and many like me), a fan off coloured sound, more than Stereophile so only the oldskool snobs keep reading them. This site is relative neutral as it's not a bussiness that needs to earn money for the shareholders trough advertising. It's a hobby project of someone with money and skills to do it right without advertisments that can influence the reviews.

And many older guys in the hifi world that i know read this site also. I guy I know sold his Wilson Alexandria speakers and bought a pair of JBL M2's due to this site. His amps and pre are still Pass Labs Xs series that cost ridiculous money, but now with a dsp that is programmed by someone who knows how who was hired by him. And even if it's costing crazy money, he is not selling his SME turntable, as it's actually very good... But you can influence them out of the audiophoolery of the past...
 

Vacceo

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I doubt that ASR is a threat to Stereophile. ASR focuses on entry-level products and Stereophile is high-end.

I always come back to Devialet as an example. They're known for selling exorbitantly expensive amplifiers. Now they sell Bluetooth speakers and soundbars with fat bass. They're like Beats by Dre but French and classy.

The Boomers are dying and Stereophile did a poor job at captivating younger audiences. They had opportunities with rappers, ravers and vinyl junkies.
Anthem is entry level, sure. NAD even more so.
 

GeorgeBynum

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I think we're missing an important point in this; @amirm evaluates individual components here. It is difficult to relate them ALONE to how it will sound. Is the speaker rear or front ported? How far is it from the rear wall? What about the room size and shape. Those matter to the sound. How many of us have a reference microphone and REW? They are much less expensive than most speakers reviewed here. With known equipment, we can intelligently use them with proper installations.

How it sounds depends on where it is.

The electronics and DAQs; quantitative to me is sufficient. Speaker (and other) cables ... don't go there. I can put the best speakers in a lousy location and they will sound ... LOUSY. Those who denigrate measurements do this, TO ME, TOO MUCH.

I used to do performance based measurements of electro hydraulic systems to optimize performance; an extra inch or 2 of conductor (pipe/tubing) USUALLY doesn't matter, but a foot or 2 usually does. $10,000 servo valve mounted "far" from controlled device worked very poorly.

Buy good devices and learn to use your calibration microphone and REW; THEN, complain.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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JanesJr1

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I thought peer review was how established scientists made life miserable for young scientists with disruptive ideas. Sort of a modern version of what happened to Semmelweis (the pioneer of hand washing in medicine) and also how Humphry Davy sent young Michael Faraday off on wild goose chases so that Faraday would not displace him from his lofty perch.
Maybe so. But taken as a whole, science hasn't stopped and gone backward yet. (At least technically, but perhaps ethically...)
 

krabapple

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Harvard by far produces the worst kinds of students and people.

Hmmm... I'd say Wharton (UPenn), Class of '68 in particular, has to be right up there with it.

"Education"? More like the opposite.

Sorry if this is offensive but Harvard graduates are for the most part some of the worst people I have ever encountered where logic has completely left the building.

My hats off to you, I hope you are successful in changing the way that place is run.

Anecdotes aren't statistics.

Sorry some Harvard grad(s) hurt you so bad.

(I graduated from a different place)
 

krabapple

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It is rather unfortunate, then, that you named the site Audio Science Review ...

It opens the site up to easy criticism since, as you freely admit, no 'science' is really being done here. If the site had been called 'Evidence Based Audio' or some such then it would be much more clear . But that horse has probably bolted ...

Now that's silly. There are plenty of blogs/channels for example that report on science and are science based and have the word in their titles., but aren't run by professional scientists. Every article in 'Scientific American' isn't written by a scientist.

Maybe you should focus on the word "Review" a little bit more.
 

krabapple

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You'll be banished like I was. Miraculously, I'm still on analog planet (thanx Mikey !), largely for new music, the phono inputs pompously baptized preamps (even though they're passive equalizers) costing more than $20,000 don't interest me so much.
Recently they have made several attempts to place cables at no cost.
I never said Stereophile online doesn't ever refuse comments or boot commenters.

Remember, the claim is that the Austin article (a reprint of something Stereophile physical-media readers could have read back in August) has garnered such a paltry few comments , all pro-Austin or anti-ASR so far, because the Stereophile mods are blocking dissenting comments about to it.

Are you saying you were banished for replying to that Jim Austin article?
 

krabapple

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I think we're missing an important point in this; @amirm evaluates individual components here. It is difficult to relate them ALONE to how it will sound. Is the speaker rear or front ported? How far is it from the rear wall? What about the room size and shape. Those matter to the sound. How many of us have a reference microphone and REW? They are much less expensive than most speakers reviewed here. With known equipment, we can intelligently use them with proper installations.

How it sounds depends on where it is.

How it measures in a Klippel, doesn't.


The electronics and DAQs; quantitative to me is sufficient. Speaker (and other) cables ... don't go there. I can put the best speakers in a lousy location and they will sound ... LOUSY. Those who denigrate measurements do this, TO ME, TOO MUCH.

That's not the speaker's fault.
 

DonH56

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Methods and techniques of engineering as studied and thought in schools may be subject to peer review, as is some R&D work, but not the engineering work itself. Do you know of any audio manufacturer who publishes full designs including all manufacturing details..?
I do not work in the audio industry. I have worked in radar, satcom, instrumentation, serial links (PCIe/SAS/SATA/SONNET), analog and digital signal processing, and so forth designing custom ICs and systems but all at generally much higher frequencies than audio. I guess it depends upon how you define "peer". Internal reviews usually involved the design team (design engineers working on different projects) plus other teams (packaging, production, quality, marketing, etc.) Then there were reviews with the customers, which often included their own design team. Often enough "scientists", the basic research folk, were involved as well (depending upon the project). Sometimes the work was published, but often enough not (proving your point) to retain the intellectual property as proprietary. Patents were often avoided for the same reason, though that trend has mostly flipped in the decades since I began my career (patents were usually shunned as letting the secrets out, but now are encouraged and companies make significant revenue from them). Engineering work, or at least the end products, were built and tested to appropriate standards (usually developed by scientists and engineers working together). The goal was compliance to those standards and engineering details were retained in-house.

One argument is that only basic research is consistently published and peer-reviewed and only scientists can do such research. Public (peer) review of engineering designs is rare, I agree, but as an admittedly biased engineer and not a scientist I do not have a problem with that. What matters is the performance of the end product, and what's inside to get that performance is the "secret sauce" belonging to the company that paid for it and engineers who designed it. A viewpoint that treats fundamental research, funded publicly, and implementation differently. That said I do not have a problem with Bell Labs or T.J. Watson Research Center using corporate money on basic research that is retained by the corporation. As I have said elsewhere, if my tax dollars paid for it, then I do feel I have a right to read the results (whether I understand it or not).

I have seen similar things in the chemical and drug industries, with whom I had only a very tangential relationship when designing a chip for some application in those areas.

IMO - Don
 

lc6

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So this is what that guy wrote in one of his first SP articles back in 2004:
"It's true, of course, that good sound can't be measured, that lousy measurements provide no assurance of lousy sound; and that components that measure badly can sound great."
and
"But unless you've got total confidence in the ears and integrity of your favorite subjective reviewer—I respect many reviewers, but have total confidence in none of them—well-conceived and -executed measurements can be very reassuring."

So in his opinion, even proper measurements are both pointless and helpful. Don't expect any consistency from him, since he has now revealed that his critical evaluations are based on his introspective reflections and shared human experience but not so much science (which he claims is his background, as a physics major).
 
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