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Stereophile Recommended Components 2024

GXAlan said:
And yet, for the speakers and most of the electronics there, you have a full set of measurements from @John Atkinson

Can’t say that about many other recommended lists…
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Yes but do not forget that these companies are paying for their advertising and their salaries! So they are not going to bite the hand that feeds them!
 
dtaylo1066 said:
J.Sikora Reference: $48,000 w/o tonearm

For 48K you think they could toss in a tonearm. A total system of price related components might cost 300-500K. How many people are dumping that on a stereo? Not that many are spending 3-5K. Silly.
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It will be better than if it is in 24 carat solid platinum! Gold is not good enough ;)
 
MattHooper said:
Fair enough, I presumed people would have interpreted that I was exaggerating for effect.

I’m certainly aware that some ASR members don’t have the type of equipment I would make an “ASR recommended list.”

And of course, we all agree that it’s good to promote realistic information about audio gear, especially so that people can make choices advisedly.

However, I submit there is still a general truth in what I was implying.



No, but there is a very obvious trend and tenor in this forum, right? It’s not just trying to save people from buying expensive cables.

The general trend is evaluating performance and value based on some specific technical criteria. And we can see how this narrows the playing field far more than anything you’d see on Steve’s channel.

It’s not for nothing that when people ask about what speakers to buy, the same handful of speakers keep getting suggested over and over “Genelec, Neumann, KEF, Revel..,”

Or if someone is looking at buying a turntable, the recommendations will be to not waste too much money on turntables. Where is clearly in Steve’s viewer systems, you’re going to see spending on turntables that most on ASR would deem wasteful.

There’s a very heavy “price to technical performance” bias in the forum which is perfectly legitimate, but which as I am saying, would rule against the majority of what you see in the Steve’s Viewer systems.

We know very well that plenty here with scoff at the price performance ratio for many of the speakers, turntables and other gear selected by Steve’s viewers. You can be guaranteed that much of what you see there would not be recommended had those people come here for advice. A lot of stuff in those viewer systems are no doubt just the type of gear many on ASR would deem sold on manufacturer-inflated bs and audiophile myths or misconceptions.

And no doubt there are probably some over spending on cables.

That’s why, if I look at the big picture, I can ask myself “ should I look at those systems with dismay? With the attitude that those poor audiophiles could have gotten technically better performance for less money, and so “poor them for not having ASR having advised them?”

And as I said, my answer is no. I still think they are having a blast.

Accurate information about audio gear is clearly worth being promoted. (I tried to do my modest part in this in the subjective forums).

But I don’t see common ASR criteria as the only viable route to putting together satisfying sound systems, and I try not to feel too white knighty - even if there is some level of ignorance or misconception mixed into some audio files system, hey, we can’t “save” everyone, and they are still generally having a satisfying experience.
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I think the issue here is that you're conflating a few people's views with the 'ASR' view.

I don't think there is an 'ASR View' - there's 37K members and a lot of active posters. You can't lump us all in together.

Maybe we could broadly say that the ASR view on loudspeakers is 'Start with as neutral as possible and use DSP to tweak to personal taste.'

For electronics 'Buy what appeals but be aware that you can get maximum performance for not a lot of money.'

For cables 'There is zero benefit in spending a lot'

For other devices such as power conditioning, 'grounding boxes' etc -' Don't bother, they do nothing beyond maybe a temporary placebo effect'

None of this is bad advice. And if someone is aware of this advice and still chooses to ignore it, that's up to them. At least they make a decision in full knowledge that there are differing points of view.

It does not add up to 'Do it our way or you're wrong and stupid.' (That may be the attitude of some posters on ASR but unless Amir comes down from the mountain with the 'ASR Way' on tablets of stone, it isn't ASR). This site is, in fact, a very broad church.

Yes, some of us do like to have a laugh at the dreadful measuring speakers, especially if they are horrendously expensive and come with an idiotic back story. But I think you are reading too much into that.

Also, people who buy these speakers do, IME, mostly end up dissatisfied and end up blaming recording quality, or some other component in their system, leading to a round of pointless 'upgrading' or tweaking (although I accept that there are exceptions where they have a very narrow taste in music which the speakers enhance, that situation is quite rare).

In short, I think you're tilting at windmills. The vast majority here don't have any issue with someone owning Zu Druids and a noisy tube amp. They just wouldn't do that themselves.
 
VientoB said:
ok, it's not hi-fi though is it? Where's the fidelity?
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John Devore has said one motivation for his chosen company name is that he thought it was funny to abbreviate it in his logo to “DeF”
:)

John has said that he’s always been attracted to loudspeaker brands that had some
“ personality,” that came from a head designer.

But in terms of Sonic Fidelity…

The term originally arose from the attempt to reproduce the sound of voices and live instruments with Fidelity. To sound like the real thing.

What John wants his loudspeakers to do especially his wide baffled O series is to paint a “ solid picture” of a musical event in front of you, the sense of dense, palpable voices and instruments, along with a dynamic liveliness, the communicates the efforts of the musicians.

That is precisely the type of qualities I heard from those speakers. There was a “heft” to the sound that made instruments and voices sound more rich and corporal. And wow, did drums sound great. Very big on the “ boogie factor” for the type of music I love.

I’ve mentioned before that I’ve had similar experiences with other idiosyncratic loudspeakers. Shun Mook, for instance.
They were known for all sorts of woo woo tweaks, which I never believed in and don’t believe it now. But they made a loudspeaker designed on their idiosyncratic principles: their belief that the sonic signature of cabinet wood materials made a difference, and they selected cabinet wood for its resonating quality as I did a musical instrument. They did a three-way without segmenting the cabinet, feeling that all three drivers resonating in a single cabinet aided coherence. They “ tuned” the inside of the cabinet with their famous little wood Mpingo discs.

All of which seems to me dubious. And yet when I first encountered that loudspeaker at a local audio store, not knowing what it was or who designed it, I heard one of the most captivating, graceful, coherent presentations I’d heard from a loudspeaker. That remains true when I got it in for a review in my room.
The sound was “ unmechanical” and natural sounding in a way that to my ears eluded many loudspeakers.

For me, these are some of the interesting finds that are unlikely to show up, much less be lauded, in a forum like this. And so I’m happy to be able to read about them in some of the subjective magazines.

Cheers.
 
Mart68 said:
I think the issue here is that you're conflating a few people's views with the 'ASR' view.

I don't think there is an 'ASR View' - there's 37K members and a lot of active posters. You can't lump us all in together.
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I am aware of the variety of views I encounter in this forum, and I think most of your criticism is already handled in what I wrote.
I spoke of “ General trends” which of course admit of all sorts of different exceptions and viewpoints.

Mart68 said:
None of this is bad advice.
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I agree. But it is still the type of advice you would get here, which would rule out much of what one sees in Steve’s viewer videos. Much of that equipment would “ not be advisable” on ASR.

Mart68 said:
And if someone is aware of this advice and still chooses to ignore it, that's up to them. At least they make a decision in full knowledge that there are differing points of view.
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Sure, I know that’s a common view here.

But it’s also common here to look upon a reviewer like Steve Guttenberg as misleading his viewers in various ways, including lauding gear that on ASR would generally be seen as overpriced and under performing, and to be avoided.

And that’s just the type of gear that shows up in a lot of his viewer systems.

In other words, it’s probably a safe assumption that most of Steves viewers were not putting together their gear after reading ASR. And therefore probably weren’t as “ASR Educated” - making their choices with the type of education you are suggesting and as many here would like to see, leading them to make some dubious purchases.

It’s from that standpoint I’m saying I mostly don’t feel sorry for those making those choices, and in many cases I don’t think they were necessarily duped. They’ve found their way to satisfying systems.

Mart68 said:
It does not add up to 'Do it our way or you're wrong and stupid.' (That may be the attitude of some posters on ASR but unless Amir comes down from the mountain with the 'ASR Way' on tablets of stone, it isn't ASR). This site is, in fact, a very broad church.
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It’s broad, which is why I come here. But I think you are underestimating the amount of disparagement found on ASR against the type of subjective reviewers (such as Steve) who helped drive the type of purchases I’m talking about. It is one of the more common themes here to dismiss the worth of subjective reviews, not only as fantasy or playing to advertisers, but for promoting the type of “ poor price to performance ratio” equipment one might see in those videos.

Mart68 said:
Also, people who buy these speakers do, IME, mostly end up dissatisfied and end up blaming recording quality, or some other component in their system, leading to a round of pointless 'upgrading' or tweaking (although I accept that there are exceptions where they have a very narrow taste in music which the speakers enhance, that situation is quite rare).
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I’ve tried to pay attention to exactly that because it’s often claimed. But in perusing various “ what’s your gear and how long have you had it?” threads In subjective forums, as well as what people describe here, I haven’t seen good evidence that there is such a trend. I’ve posted examples before showing the plenty of those on the subjective forums have had equipment for very long time.

SEE HERE for instance

Audiophiles tend to be interested in audio gear, and find excuses to play with new gear, whatever your subjective or objective disposition, this trend seems to occur.

Hell, our dear leader Objectivist Amir has found a way to turn his gear obsession into an entire website, so he can keep playing with different gear. :)

Mart68 said:
In short, I think you're tilting at windmills. The vast majority here don't have any issue with someone owning Zu Druids and a noisy tube amp. They just wouldn't do that themselves.
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That’s definitely true of some, but I think you are underestimating the more prevailing attitudes to that type of equipment. Very often, the criticism is not couched as “ this isn’t for me” but more “ This design is just bad!” and a silly choice. And often enough that praise for such designs are misleading audiophiles (see those mischievous subjective reviewers, giving praise to “ poorly designed equipment.”)

There’s a fair amount of typical attitude towards Zu here

Again, I’m with you that there is a broad range of opinions on this forum, but when it comes to generalities, I suspect you were underestimating the general tilt of this forum, in terms of what I was getting at.
 
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this is my way of trying to understand people and things, through direct questions...don't feel obligated to answer!!!

reading this thread I understand one thing: for some in here personal experience does not count, or rather, it is part of that uselessness of misleading situations that, not starting from a scientific observation, cannot be classified as useful for the purpose.
So you perceive a sort of annoyance towards everything that tries to equate subjective experience to objective experience that only tries to make the listening experience more human and personal.
This approach, if I remember correctly, is called "positivism", the primacy of science and the scientific method as the only way to the truth.
Whether it is a magazine in this case Stereophile, a youtuber or a member of ASR, anyone who can try to explain and put on the table a perception of taste or preference or the observation of an "unrevealed" character of personal liking or not, in a certain way crosses the border of the original sin: subjectivism.

What is not clear to me about this line of objectivist positivist thought, of some, is the final goal that pushes you to participate in posts like this if it were only a problem of science, everything would already be solved. ASR has already given us over the years the guidelines for the perfect system. It is useless to continue at this point. Let's only talk about music and if a new scientifically proven technical remedy were to come out on the market, let's all adopt it.
But the discussions never end, so strong in this idea, what drives you to write considerations on the observations of others, when all the questions for you already have an answer, on the considerations of certain press, or on commentators and YouTubers and on designers and brands?
Why, having already in hand the keys to the observation that in your view is central to achieving the good final result of the "right way of listening", you feel the need to have to try to save the "wandering souls" from a world that you have already branded and resolved for a long time?

In this regard, I like to bring this sentence to everyone's attention...

….."positivism establishes that what cannot be observed does not exist. This conception is scientifically unsustainable, because it is impossible to make valid statements about what one "can" or "cannot" observe. One should say: “only what we observe exists” which is obviously false”….
A. Einstein
 
Mikig said:
Why, having already in hand the keys to the observation that in your view is central to achieving the good final result of the "right way of listening", you feel the need to have to try to save the "wandering souls" from a world that you have already branded and resolved for a long time?
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My quick attempt at an answer: as far as saving wandering souls, it depends how you go about it. Depending on the context, it could be considered pushy, but another context not so much.

Amir creating this forum as a place to learn about audio gear isn’t being pushy, and it simply here for anybody who wants to avail themselves of this information.

Likewise, with his YouTube channel. It’s simply put out there for those who find the information valuable. I and many other audiophiles find it hugely valuable.

I guess there’s the question of how intrusive or pushy to be in promoting this information.
For instance, is it “too white night” to bring the stuff up in the subjective audio forums? To “save” some members there?

I guess it comes down to how you view it and the context . For instance, if I was about to buy a valuable gem in Thailand, I would certainly appreciate even a stranger butting in to mention to me that the guy I’m dealing with as a known scammer and the gem is worthless.

To that extent, in some of the subjective forums, I don’t mind being an alternative voice saying “ just so you know, there’s no good technical basis for the performance claims of that cable you are thinking of buying.”

It’s a fine line between helpful and intrusive or obnoxious, giving people the type of help they don’t really want.
 
MattHooper said:
My quick attempt at an answer: as far as saving wandering souls, it depends how you go about it. Depending on the context, it could be considered pushy, but another context not so much.

Amir creating this forum as a place to learn about audio gear isn’t being pushy, and it simply here for anybody who wants to avail themselves of this information.

Likewise, with his YouTube channel. It’s simply put out there for those who find the information valuable. I and many other audiophiles find it hugely valuable.

I guess there’s the question of how intrusive or pushy to be in promoting this information.
For instance, is it “too white night” to bring the stuff up in the subjective audio forums? To “save” some members there?

I guess it comes down to how you view it and the context . For instance, if I was about to buy a valuable gem in Thailand, I would certainly appreciate even a stranger butting in to mention to me that the guy I’m dealing with as a known scammer and the gem is worthless.

To that extent, in some of the subjective forums, I don’t mind being an alternative voice saying “ just so you know, there’s no good technical basis for the performance claims of that cable you are thinking of buying.”

It’s a fine line between helpful and intrusive or obnoxious, giving people the type of help they don’t really want.
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hi Matt,
thanks for the reply.

consider that I write and participate only in this forum. I have read them all, the others, like many of us, but I have never found the spark that would make me want to participate in the discussions.
ASR is a “white fly” in the audio panorama. I love advice, especially the ones I have kindly received from Amirm with his work and from many users, who tirelessly write every day out of passion on the forum. I think I am an evolved subjectivist, or if you like, a failed objectivist.
I am slowly understanding the technical scientific reasons that underlie this world, I am treasuring them in my way of listening, radically different from “yesterday” but I cannot leave behind the emotional part that involves me in this hobby. I like collecting devices, I like putting my own into the system, I like dreaming of being able to own the “recommended” AAA class component one day, even if I don’t recognize its thaumaturgical properties, but above all I like the challenge I started with the ASR between technique and my abilities.
You will say, useless stuff, it’s only in your mind!! but I can’t do without it: it would be like you giving up your CJ system or your turntable.
So the advice, when pertinent and interesting, is the basis of the process that leads me with curiosity to inform myself, study, understand and solve.
However, I think I can classify the advice into two large categories: the technical advice, basic for everyone, and the humanistic advice that is necessary for me, because it is the engine of desire of my knowledge. To be refined and then obviously focused on technique.
That’s why I don’t feel like discarding a priori part of the press and part of the experience of hobbyists. I like trying to see things at 360 degrees….
 
Perhaps some here will be heartened to see something like this:


The Reddit audiophile forum is newer than many other forums, and it’s my impression that the age of participants tends to run somewhat younger than many other older audiophile forums (and a lot more newbies).
On the whole, they seem to have far less patience with the type of audio nonsense that has been taken for granted for years.
See the preponderance of criticism of Stereophile reviewing that ethernet switch.

I don’t know if there is any ASR effect in there, or if it’s a feature of a somewhat newer generation of audiophiles.
 
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Mikig said:
hi Matt,
thanks for the reply.

consider that I write and participate only in this forum. I have read them all, the others, like many of us, but I have never found the spark that would make me want to participate in the discussions.
ASR is a “white fly” in the audio panorama. I love advice, especially the ones I have kindly received from Amirm with his work and from many users, who tirelessly write every day out of passion on the forum. I think I am an evolved subjectivist, or if you like, a failed objectivist.
I am slowly understanding the technical scientific reasons that underlie this world, I am treasuring them in my way of listening, radically different from “yesterday” but I cannot leave behind the emotional part that involves me in this hobby. I like collecting devices, I like putting my own into the system, I like dreaming of being able to own the “recommended” AAA class component one day, even if I don’t recognize its thaumaturgical properties, but above all I like the challenge I started with the ASR between technique and my abilities.
You will say, useless stuff, it’s only in your mind!! but I can’t do without it: it would be like you giving up your CJ system or your turntable.
So the advice, when pertinent and interesting, is the basis of the process that leads me with curiosity to inform myself, study, understand and solve.
However, I think I can classify the advice into two large categories: the technical advice, basic for everyone, and the humanistic advice that is necessary for me, because it is the engine of desire of my knowledge. To be refined and then obviously focused on technique.
That’s why I don’t feel like discarding a priori part of the press and part of the experience of hobbyists. I like trying to see things at 360 degrees….
Click to expand...

I can sympathize with some of what I think you are feeling.

I’m suddenly caught between two worlds myself: I loved my old-school audio journey.
I still enjoy subjective reviews, and I enjoy discussing sound and subjective terms with other audiophiles. I come here because people are dedicated to a lack of BS about equipment, and so one can find accurate information here. There are tons of knowledgable and helpful people here!

On the other hand, given the general allergy to subjective reviews and subjective sound description, I do not find it nourishes all my audio-nerd needs. It can occasionally feel like having stepped into a foreign country and trying to communicate. :)
 
MattHooper said:
Perhaps some here will be heartened to see something like this:


The Reddit audiophile forum is newer than many other forums, and it’s my impression that the age of participants tends to run somewhat younger than many other older audiophile forums (and a lot more newbies).
On the whole, they seem to have far less patience with the type of audio nonsense that has been taken for granted for years.
See the preponderance of criticism of Stereophile reviewing that ethernet switch.

I don’t know if there is any ASR effect in there, or if it’s a feature of a somewhat newer generation of audiophiles.
Click to expand...
We should remember that Stereophile was started as a reaction against High Fidelity magazine (e.g., J. Gordon Holt) to provide audio reviews that were objective and not caving to the pressure from manufacturers to “tell it like it is.” Unfortunately, we now have this: Silent Angel Bonn NX network switch by Jim Austin, a truly amazing piece of writing as the Reddit discussion forum indicates.

Jim Austin claims in the review that he “opened his mind” to “a greater acceptance of uncertainty, a willingness to give up the certainty of scientific proof and accept things with less evidence than, say, a rigorous double-blind test.” Someone better teach the staff in Stereophile what confirmation bias is. “HiFi streaming networks” is the selling mantra of the company Silent Angel that produces the $3995 switch box which Stereophile is now pushing as a recommended component. The HFA blog (hi-fiadvice.com) goes even more insane Silent Angel Bonn N8 Pro and Bonn NX Ethernet Switches and Genesis GX Clock by Christiaan Punter. If we cannot even agree on the scientific method as the basis for analysis, it is difficult to imagine a productive discussion that will provide any insight based on evidence.

Just so we have a dose of reality, people who believe in claims of audibility of network equipment should try the pulling the plug experiment. If one is playing a previously unplayed lossless stream from say Apple or Qobuz pull the plug on the network some two seconds after starting the playback: after 30 seconds playback will still be going. When streaming, you are not literally streaming the music with a steady flow, you are downloading files very quickly on demand into a buffer and playing them from the buffer. You will be equally served by this $24.99 switch box with no audible difference from the recommended $4K box by Stereophile. Audio grade networks my foot!

Stereophile is able to exist because of ad buys from companies selling snake oil. In turn, the companies are able to exist because they get a handful of extremely profitable sales off of the write-ups in Stereophile. It is a vicious closed loop that will last until the people who fall for these ”subjectivist” scams are no longer with us (PS Audio anyone?) or have a “religious experience.” ;)

Opinions, likes or dislikes (including my own) are not data: they are only opinions.

P.S.: TAS gets panned even worse as TAS does not ever provides any form of measurements, plus their pushing of only “high end” (a.k.a., very expensive) products.
 
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