• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Stereophile Now Measuring Turntables....

computer-audiophile

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2022
Messages
2,565
Likes
2,880
Location
Germany
Wer all the competing turntables fitted with the same arm, the same cartridge with the same amount of wear, played through the same phono stage/amplifiers?
One the turntable revolves at the correct speed , vinyl replay is nothing more than basking and robbins just choose the flavour of choice.
The turntables were evaluated in their entirety, which was the point. All were equipped with DL103 as cartridges and played through the same amplifier from Audio Research.

Frank Schröder's turntable, however, had a DL103 that he had modified with a lighter boron needle carrier - perhaps that's why it scored best. :);)


1686044244292.jpeg
 

charleski

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
1,098
Likes
2,240
Location
Manchester UK
That is an interesting theory. What about the difference between belt drive and direct drive turntables? Subjectivists claim that direct drive turntables have a better "rhythm" ... can this be correlated to something more objective?
I think the principle problem is that there are many elements that contribute to pitch instability in turntables and these interact. One of the primary elements is the record itself, as the spindle hole is typically off-center, so it will have an unstable pitch no matter what drive mechanism is used. Wow from record centering issues is probably the cause of the large ~0.7Hz peaks shown in the graphs posted by @Balle Clorin. But then you get wow at higher frequencies from the drive and from the tonearm resonance which are shown in this graph from the excellent B&K paper he linked:
Screenshot 2023-06-06 095529.png

(Note that the frequency axis must be divided by 100.)

wow or flutter cannot be associated with vibrato...(and it's unbearably fast...)
??? Performance vibrato generally modulates at 6Hz, which is very close to the common tonearm resonance. There's nothing magical about this frequency, it's a result of deliberate unmasking of the essential tremor that is intrinsic to the human neuromuscular system. It's entirely possible that the 'more musical' effect some people ascribe to turntables may be related to wow occurring at lower or higher frequencies (or indeed to an interaction of different pitch instabilities).
 

morillon

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 19, 2022
Messages
1,373
Likes
276
except for special effects (organ, electroacoustic instruments, electronic etc.). vibrato in the musical sense concerning string instruments, woodwinds, brass instruments, etc. are generally not as slow than wow. or as fast as flutter..
but also important..."not by nature "regular""...
hence my point concerning "acoustic" music...
;-)
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,118
Likes
12,303
Location
London
The turntables were evaluated in their entirety, which was the point. All were equipped with DL103 as cartridges and played through the same amplifier from Audio Research.

Frank Schröder's turntable, however, had a DL103 that he had modified with a lighter boron needle carrier - perhaps that's why it scored best. :);)


View attachment 290543
Completely fatuous then just an affectation.
Keith
 

charleski

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
1,098
Likes
2,240
Location
Manchester UK
except for special effects (organ, electroacoustic instruments, electronic etc.). vibrato in the musical sense concerning string instruments, woodwinds, brass instruments, etc. are generally not as slow than wow. or as fast as flutter..
but also important..."not by nature "regular""...
hence my point concerning "acoustic" music...
;-)
Screenshot 2023-06-06 110035.png

It's possible to tease out small variations in modulation rate depending on pitch and loudness, but as shown the means are well within 2SD of each other, and vibrato modulation is generally very regular. The only truly significant differences here happen between different performers. These vibrato rates are well within the range of wow exhibited by turntables.
 

morillon

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 19, 2022
Messages
1,373
Likes
276
View attachment 290547
It's possible to tease out small variations in modulation rate depending on pitch and loudness, but as shown the means are well within 2SD of each other, and vibrato modulation is generally very regular. The only truly significant differences here happen between different performers. These vibrato rates are well within the range of wow exhibited by turntables.
you are mistaken in essence the vibrato of human origin is not regular..
moreover technically it is not constant .. and is modulated between its beginning and its end ..
there is a misunderstanding in your statement.
;-)
observing global approaches of singers etc. does not show it to you..
any musicien professional singer show it to you in a few moments...
observe a string musician .. how he manages the vibrato its variations .. will be very explicit .. because visual ..
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,118
Likes
12,303
Location
London
When I was looking for pictures on my PC backup about the shootout, I found another picture of Thomas Schick with his extravagant Commonwealth turntable conversion. I post it once here, before it falls into oblivion.

View attachment 290549
Oblivion is probably the best place for that particular TT.
Keith
 

Keith_W

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Messages
2,631
Likes
6,018
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I think the principle problem is that there are many elements that contribute to pitch instability in turntables and these interact. One of the primary elements is the record itself, as the spindle hole is typically off-center, so it will have an unstable pitch no matter what drive mechanism is used. Wow from record centering issues is probably the cause of the large ~0.7Hz peaks shown in the graphs posted by @Balle Clorin. But then you get wow at higher frequencies from the drive and from the tonearm resonance which are shown in this graph from the excellent B&K paper he linked:
View attachment 290538
(Note that the frequency axis must be divided by 100.)


??? Performance vibrato generally modulates at 6Hz, which is very close to the common tonearm resonance. There's nothing magical about this frequency, it's a result of deliberate unmasking of the essential tremor that is intrinsic to the human neuromuscular system. It's entirely possible that the 'more musical' effect some people ascribe to turntables may be related to wow occurring at lower or higher frequencies (or indeed to an interaction of different pitch instabilities).

Let me see if I read that graph properly. The most significant to least significant factors affecting flutter in a turntable system are:

1. Record centering
2. Tone arm resonance
3 and 4 (tied): record ellipticity and motor drive shaft

Interesting to note that I can only think of one turntable that ever addressed proper record centering - the Nakamichi Dragon turntable. All the others focus their effort on quiet bearings and speed stability.
 

computer-audiophile

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2022
Messages
2,565
Likes
2,880
Location
Germany
Oblivion is probably the best place for that particular TT.
Keith
Well, I find off-the-shelf products less interesting. I could just open any seller's catalog.
I've always had a soft spot for exclusive one-offs and works of art, and I also like the lively contact with the outstanding protagonists of the audio scene and like to get involved myself in different ways.
 
Last edited:

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,118
Likes
12,303
Location
London
Hideous yes ‘work of art’ definitely not and ‘outstanding protagonists’ are Schlick or Frank really ‘outstanding’ are their designs measurably better?
What they have attained is ‘guru’ status, really very little to do with actual engineering.
I do completely understand the hobby aspect of sound reproduction.

Keith
 

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,368
Likes
24,573
@computer-audiophile I did not know Holger Barske had a blog! Thank you for mentioning this. ;)
I can read German -- or, at least, I could.
It will, indeed, be good for my increasingly age-addled brain to do so (or, at least, to give it a go)! :)
 

Balle Clorin

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,330
Likes
1,209
I think the principle problem is that there are many elements that contribute to pitch instability in turntables and these interact. One of the primary elements is the record itself, as the spindle hole is typically off-center, so it will have an unstable pitch no matter what drive mechanism is used. Wow from record centering issues is probably the cause of the large ~0.7Hz peaks shown in the graphs posted by @Balle Clorin. But then you get wow at higher frequencies from the drive and from the tonearm resonance which are shown in this graph from the excellent B&K paper he linked:
View attachment 290538
(Note that the frequency axis must be divided by 100.)


??? Performance vibrato generally modulates at 6Hz, which is very close to the common tonearm resonance. There's nothing magical about this frequency, it's a result of deliberate unmasking of the essential tremor that is intrinsic to the human neuromuscular system. It's entirely possible that the 'more musical' effect some people ascribe to turntables may be related to wow occurring at lower or higher frequencies (or indeed to an interaction of different pitch instabilities).
No record is involved in my plots. They are generated by an accelerometer. Record centering wow is not an issue.,
 

CapMan

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
1,063
Likes
1,819
Location
London
Depends what you want out of music reproduction I suppose. I like tinkering with the gear (turntables were my thing and a huge part of my living for decades), but the music rules and today, I find I'm increasingly not so bothered with the mechanics of it all. When house move comes (I keep threatening it'll happen, but it will at some point in the mid-future), I'll need to get rid of all my audio 'tat' and concentrate on a final but decent home-friendly stereo system that anyone in th ehouse can use if they want to (herself won't go near my 'stuff' currently).
Sold my SME 10 last year and could not be happier with a fully streaming based solution. But, each to their own - I fully understand the tactile, emotional connection to vinyl and precision engineered mechanical devices. There is real beauty in such things for sure.

Streaming will also never replace my Sunday afternoon strolls around Brighton’s second hand record shops and the sense of history contained within those old cardboard sleeves :)
 

SSS

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2023
Messages
315
Likes
200
Location
Germany
Have a TD124 Mk2 with SME tonearm since 1971. It has some rumble but absolutely no flutter and no wow due to the very heavy platter. And it is driven by belt from the motor via rubberwheel to the platter. Rumble comes at least from some of my vinyl LPs due to warp. But I don't use the player anymore since I digitized almost all what I own the music. If new music, only digital. No turning the LP, no dust, no cleaning the vinyl. Excellent selection pane on my laptop, clean cracklefree sound as long as I want. No way back. And, I don't think that the overpriced turntables today are really better than the old ones. Maybe the cartridges due to better technology processes. And tonearm/cartridge resonance always existed and will exist to infinity.
 
Top Bottom