Stereophile electrical system improvement article

[pozz]

I have been in the electrical power construction industry for 30+ years.
I have an MSEE and grad cert. in power.
A PE for longer than I care to remember, lol.
Still working in the field. I only share this as background.

It was hard to read, confusing, one single line would have illustrated it.

0.7 Ohm ground bed? No, 50 ' x 100' substation mats rarely get below 1, usually close to 2 when measured at 500', it decreases at distance increases. R = p LA
p soil resistivity
L linear distance
A area, A increases ~ L^2

The transfer switch causing issues:
Its contact R can't be measured with a meter, too low. Must use a MultiAmp current source and put a few hundred amps thru it and measure V drop., <<0.1 V or <<0.4 mOhm, 5' of 12 AWG.
His meter socket R likely is higher, or a snap-in CB. Or the component plug in the receptacle.

Nonsense.
The fact that a contractor he had done business with said '&$@%# no!!'.
A contractor turning down work!?
For a regular customer?

Can you please comment on the multiple ground rod arrangement? I would have thought that was against code and potentially dangerous in case of lightning.

 

[amirm]

Can you please comment on the multiple ground rod arrangement? I would have thought that was against code and potentially dangerous in case of lightning.

I think and hope they were paralleling them.

 

[amirm]

0.7 Ohm ground bed?

I rolled my eyes when I read that as well. They likely don't know how to measure it.

 

[jhaider]

Always fascinated how electrical utility systems around the world look.
Verry different style and qualety they do overseas compared to Germany

Even within the US there’s huge variation. In Chicago, for instance, the multi core “Romex” cable used seemingly everywhere else is verboten. Individual wires are run in metal conduit.

 

[bigguyca]

Even within the US there’s huge variation. In Chicago, for instance, the multi core “Romex” cable used seemingly everywhere else is verboten. Individual wires are run in metal conduit.

Unions adding to cost with no benefit.

 

[Trouble Maker]

Can you please comment on the multiple ground rod arrangement?

Me looking at that article, remembering re-wiring our entire house myself including driving the two new ground rods in by hammer as this guys annoying his contractors taking pictures while they use a better tool for the job.

https://c.tenor.com/TxHmgFlpRwIAAAAd/danny-devito-guns.gif

 

[bigguyca]

Can you please comment on the multiple ground rod arrangement? I would have thought that was against code and potentially dangerous in case of lightning.

Why would you think that? The grounding system at the service entrance is installed to protect against lightning. In case of lightning it is there to protect the house. You seem to imply that the grounding system has some other primary purpose and can become dangerous if lightning strikes.

If the grounding system has some other primary purpose, what is it?

Two ground rods, with a space between them, is better for providing protection from lightening at the service entrance per the NEC. Using the steel in the foundation of a residence is a great alternative, but of course difficult in existing construction.

 

[Chrispy]

Well, d'oh, it's from Fremer. Why anyone reads his sh*t is beyond me.

 

[Trouble Maker]

BTW, my inspector wanted rod(s) and a connection to the water line. I believed the NEC says either/or is ok. If memory serves one rod requires a resistance test/minimum requirement, but two doesn't. So I put two in, then added the water line ground pet his request. I wasn't going to argue, it was an easy add and he walked me through more of the process and questions I had than he needed to throughout. Feels like reasonable, if not overkill, redundancy.

 

[audio2design]

BTW, my inspector wanted rod(s) and a connection to the water line. I believed the NEC says either/or is ok. If memory serves one rod requires a resistance test/minimum requirement, but two doesn't. So I put two in, then added the water line ground pet his request. I wasn't going to argue, it was an easy add and he walked me through more of the process and questions I had than he needed to throughout. Feels like reasonable, if not overkill, redundancy.

NEC is "present" grounding electrodes shall be bonded together (250.50). If you have metal water pipes with 10' of ground contact that is considered a grounding electrode (and your interior metal water pipes must be grounded).

Depending on soil conditions and how the water is piped in the area, i.e. older area may be predominantly metal pipe, the water pipe may be a significantly better ground than the ground rods. There 0.7 ohm measurement is suspect, but if that water pipe connected to a significant metal pipe network, you could have a low ground resistance.

 

[pozz]

Why would you think that? The grounding system at the service entrance is installed to protect against lightning. In case of lightning it is there to protect the house. You seem to imply that the grounding system has some other primary purpose and can become dangerous if lightning strikes.

If the grounding system has some other primary purpose, what is it?

Two ground rods, with a space between them, is better for providing protection from lightening at the service entrance per the NEC. Using the steel in the foundation of a residence is a great alternative, but of course difficult in existing construction.

It's why I asked. As far as I know multigrounding creates risk for loops and another path for surges to enter the house. Not supposed to have a separate rod for a subpanel, for example.

 

[Inner Space]

Well, d'oh, it's from Fremer. Why anyone reads his sh*t is beyond me.

Indeed. Fremer does reviews and anecdotes (and this whole thing was an anecdote) whose sole purpose is to demonstrate how fantastically discriminating he is. He's a toxic mix of insecurity and ego. Fascinating from a psychological point of view. Not so fascinating otherwise.

 

[Charles E Flynn]

Fremer has posted on ASR before, though IIRC mainly to (literally!) cuss people out. I was curious why the transfer switch seemed to introduce all sorts of trouble, noise, whatever, and mentioned way back then that grounding would seem a more likely culprit. I have not read the article yet.

Al wires can be a real problem up to and including fire hazard due to poor connections and corrosion from Al/Cu interfaces. Those issues have been solved for decades, however, and are mainly just at the service entrance itself. We used to kill power to retighten the connections once a year or so.

CPSC -- Repairing Aluminum Wiring

 

[Chrispy]

Indeed. Fremer does reviews and anecdotes (and this whole thing was an anecdote) whose sole purpose is to demonstrate how fantastically discriminating he is. He's a toxic mix of insecurity and ego. Fascinating from a psychological point of view. Not so fascinating otherwise.

His "good taste" escapes me.

 

[JDragon]

Besides the obvious conclusion that this completely invalidates all his previous reviews, I’d like to point out Fremer is the guy who joined an audiophile Facebook group, got laughed out of it, wrote a column about how thick-skinned he is and how he was totally unaffected by the experience, then proceeded to take potshots at the group in the safe space of his column free from having his feelings hurt. What a clown.

 

[JRS]

Even within the US there’s huge variation. In Chicago, for instance, the multi core “Romex” cable used seemingly everywhere else is verboten. Individual wires are run in metal conduit.

Just think tough--in 100 years should your current wire need to be replaced it can be done by pull thru. One never knows.

 

[antennaguru]

Why would you think that? The grounding system at the service entrance is installed to protect against lightning. In case of lightning it is there to protect the house. You seem to imply that the grounding system has some other primary purpose and can become dangerous if lightning strikes.

If the grounding system has some other primary purpose, what is it?

Two ground rods, with a space between them, is better for providing protection from lightening at the service entrance per the NEC. Using the steel in the foundation of a residence is a great alternative, but of course difficult in existing construction.

I agree but I do know of an instance where the ground rod at the service entrance actually brought the lightning into the house. It was our mountain house that had a nearby 100’ Pine Tree get struck directly by lightning. There were black burn marks down the side of the tree and a branch was blown off the tree. Then there were black burn marks on the gound radiating away from the base of the tree, one of which traveled 50’ to the service entrance ground rod and up into the service entrance breaker panel. Two breakers were ruined, 3 light bulbs popped, a flat screen TV in a bedroom got fried, and the fuse in my Linn Sondek popped. It could have been a lot worse.

With Lightning you do the best you can but Lightning doesn’t read the NEC and almost anything can happen. Best to have one plug to pull when it nears…

 

[Lambda]

If the grounding system has some other primary purpose, what is it?

Depending on your electrical system

In case TN-CS if PEN brakes A low resistance local earth is all that protects you from all of your appliances becoming live at about mains voltage.
In Germany a house like this would have 3*200A service in the US since its only halve and only Single phase i would assume its about 2*400A?

In this case of the video i think the flimsy Grounding with the tow sticks and the thin wire is ridiculous.
Even if it has 0.7Ohms. on a 200A service this would not be enough to tripe the barker

 

[audio2design]

In this case of the video i think the flimsy Grounding with the tow sticks and the thin wire is ridiculous.
Even if it has 0.7Ohms. on a 200A service this would not be enough to tripe the barker

The typical regulatory requirement for residential is 25 ohms. It's not meant to trip the 200 amp service breaker.

 

[Ingenieur]

Can you please comment on the multiple ground rod arrangement? I would have thought that was against code and potentially dangerous in case of lightning.

It is a code violation. He may have bonded them all together, although the article is hard the decipher. There are exceptions (which do not apply in his case). In some cases an isolated POWER (not ground) system or separately derived.

I like the part where he said his 92 year old hearing impaired mother in law heard the difference and did not need the closed captions any longer.