Stereophile electrical system improvement article

[Lambda]

In that scenario with our 2 Ohm ground it would trip the 20 A branch.

no it would not trip because current is limited by the Appliance impedance

How much current can a 25 Ohm ground carry before the lights go out?

Depends on your lamps... whats there minimum working voltage? with LED bulbs Lets just say halve nominal line voltage to make it easy
So the load can be 25Ohms
To say it more in general if the Appliance load impatience is equal to the Grounding impedance voltage is Halve

Some GFIC will drop out on low V,

Some do many don’t
But a voltage drop is the only thing that can trip the CGFI

That would be noticeable.

i already acknowledged this

The line voltage would drop (because Neutral voltage would rise because the return part trout ground is not as low impedance)
So depending on Load an depending on your Ground resistance your devices might not work.

But a situation where you have no lights and apparently no power but device enclosures are at potentially Dangerous voltages
is not save because you keep repeating this

Do smart meters detect loss of N?

don't know anything about US Smart meter.

Yes, 2 legs of 3 phase do not cancel, even if of equal magnitude. 'phasors'.

but 3 legs? load is normally distributed over 3 phases.

Our grounded appliances are not isolated from ground.
That is the flaw in your scenario.
The box should be grounded, then no V rise.

But the appliances box in this scenario is connected to the additional earth electrode (i.a. the ground rod) over PE

 

[Ingenieur]

Give a real example
Voltage
Appliance
Bed R

If the ground plane is elevated, so is where the person is standing.
There is no drop from frame to rod (or very little since it's Cu)

In addition the person will have an R to the rod > than the wire but will still see some rise.

So if the load is 2 A
And the bed alone is 25 Ohm (we'll ignore the utility R) the rise will be 50 V
Even if he sees only have of that rise the differential is only 25 V, or 25 mA shock.

But the bed is much lower, 2-3 Ohm total equivalent.

That is why it may go unnoticed for a while.
All 240 works fine
The 120 may drop to 110 maybe more under unbalanced loads, but with grounded and insulated appliances he may never feel it, and if he does X mA.

 

[Ingenieur]

no it would not trip because current is limited by the Appliance impedance

Depends on your lamps... whats there minimum working voltage? with LED bulbs Lets just say halve nominal line voltage to make it easy
So the load can be 25Ohms
To say it more in general if the Appliance load impatience is equal to the Grounding impedance voltage is Halve

Some do many don’t
But a voltage drop is the only thing that can trip the CGFI


i already acknowledged this



don't know anything about US Smart meter.


but 3 legs? load is normally distributed over 3 phases.



But the appliances box in this scenario is connected to the additional earth electrode (i.a. the ground rod) over PE

Yes it would
The frame would be grounded to where it sits and the rod
If frame rose to 60 V 30 A would flow thru the 2 Ohm ground loop. Actually it would be in // so 1 Ohm, 60 A.
Or insulated so no current flow upon touch
Give a real example

You assume the ground loop is 25 Ohm
It is not.
Even at 60 V it will dim.
But if the ground plane is elevated so is the place he is standing.
So he is 0 + 60.
No potential difference.
Even if he is elevated only 1/2 of that 30 mA.

It is contrived
Insulated floating box
Insulated floor
Your lights are 3 phase?

But this scenario would apply in your system, but worse since your ground is higher as is your V

It seldom happens
Even less injuries
It is eventually noticed and repaired

A lower ground will not help

 

[Ingenieur]

After review: the US system is inherently safer with an open N.
-Neither will trip anything
-Both could produce hazardous conditions
-The US has higher Vdrop, better indication of a problem.
-It may go unnoticed on the 230 system
-the ground R has no bearing on frame or tripping.

This is worse case, in actuality the gap would increase in favor of 115. This stands to reason, a lower V is safer.

In addition a split 1 phase system balances better when carrying 1 ph loads. This will reduce the fault current (due to cancellation) when N is open.

The system type is moot, it's O & M that matters. Do stupid things and you get bad results.

I'm done with this.
Apologizes for the distraction.

 

[Lambda]

So you see you calculated it yourself Vg is higher within a 110V system for a given load...
And you calculated yourself lower Rg = lower Vg
Higher Vg Means higher step voltage.

In addition a split 1 phase system balances better when carrying 1 ph loads. This will reduce the fault current (due to cancellation) when N is open.

In your calculation you assumed both "legs" excuse me pols (lets not get into semantics since we know whats meant) of the 1Phase systems are loaded Equally
Why don't you make the same assumption of Equal loading for 3 Phase system?

 

[rdenney]

The only way to decide who is right is a blind test.

Build a home which meets the German code and one the USA code. Release 100 blind folded people to wander around touching electrical stuff. See which version injures or kills the most people.

There is a cultural issue. If one instructs the German group to avoid touching electrical things, they will avoid them. The same instruction to the American group will be met by a commitment to touch as many electrical things as possible.

Rick "did I successfully offend both camps?" Denney

 

[audio2design]

There is a cultural issue. If one instructs the German group to avoid touching electrical things, they will avoid them. The same instruction to the American group will be met by a commitment to touch as many electrical things as possible.

Rick "did I successfully offend both camps?" Denney

Yes, but at least 11 people in the American group will also claim cultural appropriation of blind people, while 7 more, will claim that removal of lighting is a veiled attempt to erase their identity. 1 or 2 will subsequently claim that all human interaction should be blindfolded in order to level systemic advantage, and 3 will question the validity of a colonial scientific based test that does not respect their cultural teaching. The other 77 will just shake their heads but not say anything fearing cancel culture reprisal.

 

[rdenney]

I recommend that the discussion on correct bonding come to an end. I doubt there is anything left to be said that hasn't been said over and over. The problem is not that the combatants don't understand each other, it's that they disagree.

I just built a new barn. As an agricultural structure, I did not have to have the electrical work inspected, but the power company was still rather picky about the main panel before they would make the connection. I did all the wiring myself inside the barn, and it meets code (at least it meets what was code a few years ago--I rebelled at using tamper-resistant receptacles, but I also didn't put any outlets below 4 feet from the floor)--metal boxes are discretely wired to the safety ground, devices are separately grounded, the neutral is bonded to ground only at the panel, and every single circuit with general-purpose receptacles goes through a ground-fault interrupter. All the outlets are rated at 20 amps, and the only 14-guage wire in the building is for installed lighting (all of which is LED) or to operate a single piece of equipment (example: garage door opener that has a maximum power draw of 1000 watts). (I have a career of building traffic signals behind me, so I'm qualified to be an electrician even if I'm not licensed to do it for others.) I did, however, hire an electrician to set the panel and work with the power company. The code required him to propose two ground rods six feet apart, bonded together, to provide a redundant safety ground. But when we poured the footings for the foundation wall, we bonded all the reinforcing steel in the footing, and left a length of rebar projecting up out of the foundation wall--a classic Ufer ground. We did not bond the steel in the interior slab, because it sits on four inches of structural Styrofoam for thermal insulation (the floor is heated using a hydronic radiant heating system). The house used a similar arrangement, and it was built 40 years ago.

Grounding can be challenging--in Austin where I once lived and worked, getting a good earth ground for a traffic signal installation could be difficult. Often, we had four inches of soil over porous limestone of untold depth, and there simply wasn't enough ground water to provide a good earth ground. We tried all kinds of tricks, but we always measured what we did to make sure it was good enough.

Rick "but has had to replace a lot of other electrical dumbassery in the house, but none of it as dumbass as some of what's in that video" Denney

 

[Ingenieur]

So you see you calculated it yourself Vg is higher within a 110V system for a given load...
And you calculated yourself lower Rg = lower Vg
Higher Vg Means higher step voltage.


In your calculation you assumed both "legs" excuse me pols (lets not get into semantics since we know whats meant) of the 1Phase systems are loaded Equally
Why don't you make the same assumption of Equal loading for 3 Phase system?

You don't understand the calculations, but that is OK.
The 110 is safer and will give you earlier warning.
Both lower V and better balance with single phase loads.
In addition our beds are likely much lower than yours.

In addition we assume both systems will have the same resultant N current which determines Vg, the split phase will ALWAYS be lower reducing Vg.

But this is bogus scenario anyways
The ground plane where the person is would elevate towards frame reducing the difference
The box would not be 'floating' off earth ground, it would be on the same ground the person is so both at the same potential

If both legs are loaded, and all 3 phases equally there is no N, so both are equal

The point you missed is that is seldom the case residential. In that case split phase ALWAYS reduces the imbalance and 3 phase is equal to or below the highest single phase load.
Disprove that using phasors.
Then I'll prove it.

 

[Lambda]

balance with single phase loads.

Why would you make the assumption both legs in a split phase system are loaded equally but wont make the assumption all Phases in a 3 phase system are loaded equally.

You don't understand the calculations, but that is OK.

Oh i do...
Vg is ruffly the voltage your installation is elevated over "true" ground.
So the higher the higher the step voltage close to Ground rods.

The 110 is safer and will give you earlier warning.

It will give you a earlier warning because the voltage drop is more significant.
The "waning" might be apparently "no Power" don’t think this is a good save warning. But we can just digress on this

In addition our beds are likely much lower than yours.

Lets not do the "mine is bigger then yours thing" to an almost unrelated thing again...
Or we end up compering statistics like this again:

SAIDI - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

if you make claims like this at least bring a statistic and source.

But this is bogus scenario anyways

This is ok if you want to call it like this. We can have different views on this

The ground plane where the person is would elevate towards frame reducing the difference

Depends. If the whole foundation is bonded and the house is standing on a metal grid thats connected to the ground electrode. Yes
Everything you can stand on is elevate to ruffly the same potential as everything you can touch.
So low touch voltage and step voltage inside.

But if on the other hand you have only on one side of the House ground rods a view Meters away from the House i would not be so sure the floor at the other side of the house is elevated to the same potential in a fault case.

The box would not be 'floating' off earth ground, it would be on the same ground the person is so both at the same potential

Well a computer for example has lots of exposed metal parts that are connected to PE and its electrically speaking floating of the ground.

 

[bigguyca]

Broken Neutrals in the Real World

The existing discussion in previous posts concerning broken neutrals is boring and far too long, but broken neutrals do happen, and not just during construction as described in the posts above.

Below are two links among many found with a brief Internet search. A summary from a quick read of the links, which is the limit of my knowledge on the subject, is that broken neutrals in an actual, existing service will likely cause a lot damage that is very difficult to prevent. Based on the links, damage to electronics is likely. Damage from distruction of MOV-based surge protectors during a broken neutral event is also an issue.

Broken neutral on utility pole

I am looking for some recommendations on a residential over-voltage protection device. (Not just a surge protector) I have recently experienced for the 3rd time in 10 years, a broken neutral line on the utility pole feeding my house. This usually happens when the bare neutral is weakened by...

forums.mikeholt.com

404 Error - Page Not Found

Ready to take an electrical exam? For over 40 years we have been designing electrical exam preparation products that work. Choose one of our best-selling products and get the skills, the knowledge and the confidence you need to pass your exam.

www.mikeholt.com

 

[Ingenieur]

Why would you make the assumption both legs in a split phase system are loaded equally but wont make the assumption all Phases in a 3 phase system are loaded equally.


Oh i do...
Vg is ruffly the voltage your installation is elevated over "true" ground.
So the higher the higher the step voltage close to Ground rods.


It will give you a earlier warning because the voltage drop is more significant.
The "waning" might be apparently "no Power" don’t think this is a good save warning. But we can just digress on this


Lets not do the "mine is bigger then yours thing" to an almost unrelated thing again...
Or we end up compering statistics like this again:

SAIDI - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

if you make claims like this at least bring a statistic and source.


This is ok if you want to call it like this. We can have different views on this


Depends. If the whole foundation is bonded and the house is standing on a metal grid thats connected to the ground electrode. Yes
Everything you can stand on is elevate to ruffly the same potential as everything you can touch.
So low touch voltage and step voltage inside.

But if on the other hand you have only on one side of the House ground rods a view Meters away from the House i would not be so sure the floor at the other side of the house is elevated to the same potential in a fault case.


Well a computer for example has lots of exposed metal parts that are connected to PE and its electrically speaking floating of the ground.

Most household loads are single phase.

Actually, you don't.
The person is touching frame, not the rod.
At that point with frame on ground (not only bonded) there is no potential difference.

No we can't disagree, the split phase will give warning, your system will not even with lethal frame V applied.
400/230/3 is far more dangerous than 240/120/1. Fact.

Ours are lower: fact

There is only one correct view, mine.
Bogus
I've asked you to provide a real example with a device, hair dryer, lamp, etc.
You refuse because it would show the absurdity of you 'position'. We call it BS.

No, it does not 'depend': physics does not bend to your opinion or contrived scenarios.

If the equipment and person are standing on the same floor the earth path // R will be the same, so will impressed potential.
Fact.

A computer is double insulated, current limited with fusing, and often an insulated case. Even with a 20 Ohm ground you would never see elevated potential.

You ignored my challenge:
Show me with phasor (or symmetrical components) how) with an unbalanced load 3 phase is safer.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
I feel for a long time lol

You obviously have understanding and are staking your position on an misleading click bait internet video that even YOU do not understand.
Fact

 

[JP]

 

[thegeton]

...ask Fremer how long he thinks it'll take for all that new wire to 'break in'?

I can't stop laughing...

 

[thegeton]

When symptoms get really bad they've been known to do more radical things, like rewire their house.

I can't wait for the JAMA review after Fremer finally realizes that it is his head that needs to be rewired...

 

[Lambda]

Most household loads are single phase.

You don’t seem to understand that in case of PEN fault you don’t have to look at a Single appliance but the total load of the building

The person is touching frame, not the rod.

The person in my scenario is touching the metal case of a Class 1 appliance (like a PC)
And also something that's not part of the electrical installation but has a contact to earth ground Like A mental door or window frame/Handel

A computer is double insulated, current limited with fusing, and often an insulated case.

Well my computer is not and most of them with IEC-60320 C13/C14 not. Fact. ;P
And how would a Fuse Protect the user in this case?

400/230/3 is far more dangerous than 240/120/1. Fact.

Well in this case must be that German system is mush saver if they have less lethal accidents wit twice the voltage

Show me with phasor (or symmetrical components) how) with an unbalanced load 3 phase is safer.

Neutralleiterstrom im Drehstromnetz

Das Applet hilf bei der Berechnung des Stromes im Neutralleiter in einem Drehstromnetz. Die Ströme werden grafisch veranschaulicht.

www.geogebra.org

It cancels out

30ohm load on al phases resultes in a 0A load on the Neutral...
Obvious right?

if current is nor the same on every Phase here one phase is only halve the load:

Well Obviously there must be some current on N

 

[bravomail]

I hate to think of how many people are going to go and spend money on this to make their "sound better." Yes, the old panel may have needed dusting off but so much junk is spread in that article causing people to resort to wasting money for no good reason.

Thx Amir! I wanna share my somewhat unrelated power and RF noise issues.
I have a treadmill downstairs, for exercising. With electric motor. . Nothing fancy, but once I was running on it, my WiFi router upstairs would die, I'd have no signal. So I plugged a router into a simple AC overload-filter unit with many receptacles. Still no dice. Then I put another power filter for the treadmill itself. That solved the issue. So only with both filters on I could use both Wifi and a treadmill.
Older 2.4GHz Wifi would not like some microwave ovens. You get the idea. Oven went to trash.
Power and RF problems are real, but easily solvable, without fancy $XXXXX equipment.
Filters I used were APC Powerstrip Surge Protectors, they were cheaply sold in my local warehouse club. I chose the beefier ones with most Joules

 

[Ingenieur]

You don’t seem to understand that in case of PEN fault you don’t have to look at a Single appliance but the total load of the building


The person in my scenario is touching the metal case of a Class 1 appliance (like a PC)
And also something that's not part of the electrical installation but has a contact to earth ground Like A mental door or window frame/Handel


Well my computer is not and most of them with IEC-60320 C13/C14 not. Fact. ;P
And how would a Fuse Protect the user in this case?


Well in this case must be that German system is mush saver if they have less lethal accidents wit twice the voltage

Neutralleiterstrom im Drehstromnetz

Das Applet hilf bei der Berechnung des Stromes im Neutralleiter in einem Drehstromnetz. Die Ströme werden grafisch veranschaulicht.

www.geogebra.org

It cancels out

View attachment 162635
30ohm load on al phases resultes in a 0A load on the Neutral...
Obvious right?

if current is nor the same on every Phase here one phase is only halve the load:
View attachment 162637
Well Obviously there must be some current on N

I understand it, you don't. You have a contrived scenario.

That is the very reason our system is safer, neutral cancellation, correct.

False scenario. Those are double insulated.
No shock potential

I don't know what that crap is.
Hand work the phasor math like I did and show yourself our system is better, balanced and safer.

I already did it for you but sometimes you have to work the math yourself.
Paper and pencil, simple.

We have far fewer residential fatalities than
Germany. You essentially set up a death trap.

 

[Lambda]

That is the very reason our system is safer, neutral cancellation, correct.

Cancellation can occur the same way in a multi phase System.
This is the reason 3Phase Cables with CEE plug don't have and don't need thicker Neutral conductor its all the same area mm² (non of this AWG rubbish)
Return current on an can maximal be equal to phase current (with resstiv or equal lods)

False scenario. Those are double insulated.
No shock potential

My PC is not and so is every ATX power supply i have ever seen the Green Yello PE goes directly to the case.

if PE becomes Live (like in my contrived scenario where PEN to the transformer barks) so does the PC case Become Live... As well as lots of connected peripherals.

I don't know what that crap is.
Hand work the phasor math like I did and show yourself our system is better, balanced and safer.

I already did it for you but sometimes you have to work the math yourself.
Paper and pencil, simple.

Don't worry you don't have to understand everything.

We have far fewer residential fatalities than
Germany. You essentially set up a death trap.

Home electrical fires account for an estimated 51,000 fires each year, nearly than 500 deaths, more than 1,400 injuries, and $1.3 billion in property damage.

Electrical Injuries - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries. Of these, approximately 400 are due to high-voltage electrical injuries, and lightning causes 50 to 300.

There are also at least 30,000 shock incidents per year that are non-fatal.

Germany: 3574 shocks 42 deadly shocks in total 13 of them residential.

So get you pen an paper and tell me how "approximately 1000 deaths per year" is statistically saver compared to 42.

You essentially set up a death trap.

Looks like we are fine with death trap.

We valeu worker lives the equally to residential lives therefore it unethical to serrate

 

[audio2design]

Electrical Injuries - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Germany: 3574 shocks 42 deadly shocks in total 13 of them residential.

So get you pen an paper and tell me how "approximately 1000 deaths per year" is statistically saver compared to 42.

Best if linking something that attempts to support your argument that you read it in full and understand it.

The most recent data is 166 electrocution deaths in the workplace in the US. Typically residential electrocution was running about 1/2 of that, so 80 ish electrocution deaths, which is higher than Germany, but a large portion of US deaths are rural. The 1000 quote above includes lightning, arc flash, burns, etc. It is not purely electrocution. On a per population basis the US and Germany are not that different. Germany appears better, but when looking at the nature of the deaths, and much larger highly rural in the US, it is not surprising.

Ontario, Canada, exactly same electrical system as US, had 4 residential deaths from electrocution in 2018, and 2 work related. That would translate to 24 residential, and 12 work related, or less than Germany population adjusted. Typically residential is lower (2), so arguably normally much better than Germany. Ontario, while very large, has its population concentrated in cities more similar to Germany, that overall US with larger agricultural, non factory farm.