Stereophile electrical system improvement article

[Ingenieur]

Cancellation can occur the same way in a multi phase System.
This is the reason 3Phase Cables with CEE plug don't have and don't need thicker Neutral conductor its all the same area mm² (non of this AWG rubbish)
Return current on an can maximal be equal to phase current (with resstiv or equal lods)

My PC is not and so is every ATX power supply i have ever seen the Green Yello PE goes directly to the case.

if PE becomes Live (like in my contrived scenario where PEN to the transformer barks) so does the PC case Become Live... As well as lots of connected peripherals.


Don't worry you don't have to understand everything.

Electrical Injuries - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Germany: 3574 shocks 42 deadly shocks in total 13 of them residential.

So get you pen an paper and tell me how "approximately 1000 deaths per year" is statistically saver compared to 42.

Looks like we are fine with death trap.

We valeu worker lives the equally to residential lives therefore it unethical to serrate

Are you pulling my leg? good one! Lol
You can lead a horse to water....
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Do you know what a phasor is?
Not the StarTrek Phaser.

Wait!!!! Hold on!!!! If you have a balanced 3 ph wye system no neutral I exists! Really!? Get out of here!

Show me how:
10/0 = 10 + 0j
10/120 = -5 + 8.67 j
10/-120 = -5 - 8.67 j
Sum 0 + 0 j = 0/0
Wow, like magic, lol
Will wonders never cease.

Too bad many residential loads are 1 ph.

What is 'j', why not 'i'? What is another similar complex constant 'a'?
How are they used?
What is a positive, negative and zero sequence? How are they derived?
Symmetrical Components?
Show me some basic understanding. Do not ignore, redirect, go on a tangent, obfuscate, etc.
Plain, simple answers to my questions above, that even I can understand

Please, without I have no idea if you understand anything about the subject other than a contrived YouTube video that actually shows the US system is safer.

Our system is an order of magnitude safer:
400 fatalities
Only <100 residential, 80
Adjusting for population: 43 x 83/330 = 11
Far worse than the USA.

Industrial fatalities for a 5 year period: 739
150/year

Appliance related over 10 years: 607
Average 60
Adjusted for Germany 15

No matter how you contort yourself:
Our system is safer statistically
And technically (no shame not understanding this)

It is a good thing you do not work in the industry with your 'acceptable loss' philosophy and lack of math and engineering knowledge.

 

[boswell]

Different countries..., different implementations and regulations, different outcomes
Typical power distribution pole in Vietnam (Thailand similar but often more crowded)
Not all power, phone /data as well; some very light wires carry power though.
Lots of rain; flooding. lots of lightning.
No reported audio interference, hiss hum etc
No documented fatalities
Clearly very effective regulations in place

 

[Doodski]

Different countries..., different implementations and regulations, different outcomes
Typical power distribution pole in Vietnam (Thailand similar but often more crowded)
Not all power, phone /data as well; some very light wires carry power though.
Lots of rain; flooding. lots of lightning.
No reported audio interference, hiss hum etc
No documented fatalities
Clearly very effective regulations in place
View attachment 165020

It's a wonder the pole isn't bent or broken.

 

[Head_Unit]

The response I posted to Mikey's article:

"So it's safe to say your electrical system was sufficiently messed up before this transformation that we should ignore all your previous reviews here?"

EXACTLY my thought. And a totally wasted opportunity to MEASURE any differences. Just as hmmm never any measurements of power related products. Not that audio measurements we make necessarily show every single aspect of sound however it would be nice to see if there was any major effect. Like ahem did the NOISE FLOOR actually reduce? As an electrical engineer that is not inconceivable to me with lesser equipment, but also conceivable it would make no difference. This was hardly a blind test, after all that work and expense who is really going to want to hear NO difference?

 

[Lambda]

Do you know what a phasor is?

yes

Wait!!!! Hold on!!!! If you have a balanced 3 ph wye system no neutral I exists! Really!? Get out of here!

No.When did i said this?

Too bad many residential loads are 1 ph.

And this is relevant how?
You realize that multiple loads on multiple circuits in the house can be on different phases and the sum of there currents flows troug the PEN
(Or there sum of currents cancels out.)
Maybe uses your uses our zero sequence if this is not already trivial enough to you.

Show me some basic understanding. Do not ignore, redirect, go on a tangent, obfuscate, etc.

Show me Some basic understanding of the operating principle of an basic CGFI and then explain again why it would trip (in your mind) if PEN breaks.
Or show me how a PC is double isolated and its case not connected to PE.
If you want me to play your Math question game have the decency to formulate full sentences.

order of magnitude safer:

But First explain how 12 and 13 are an order of magnitude different?

I need to be sure you under stand basic orders of magnitude
before i waist some time explaining polar and rectangular form notation for complex numbers.

What is 'j', why not 'i'?

Because i is confusing as i is also current.
And a is real. (tahts not confusing since no one would use a small a for current)

How are they used?

I dont get the question?
a can be a real number
i is square root -1
you can multiply square root -1 wit a real number...

What is a positive, negative and zero sequence? How are they derived?

Its a methode to express positive a symmetrical phasor as symmetrical phasor with same magnitude and relative angel an a additional shift component.

 

[Ingenieur]

yes

No.When did i said this?


And this is relevant how?
You realize that multiple loads on multiple circuits in the house can be on different phases and the sum of there currents flows troug the PEN
(Or there sum of currents cancels out.)
Maybe uses your uses our zero sequence if this is not already trivial enough to you.


Show me Some basic understanding of the operating principle of an basic CGFI and then explain again why it would trip (in your mind) if PEN breaks.
Or show me how a PC is double isolated and its case not connected to PE.
If you want me to play your Math question game have the decency to formulate full sentences.


But First explain how 12 and 13 are an order of magnitude different?

I need to be sure you under stand basic orders of magnitude
before i waist some time explaining polar and rectangular form notation for complex numbers.

Because i is confusing as i is also current.
And a is real. (tahts not confusing since no one would use a small a for current)



I dont get the question?
a can be a real number
i is square root -1
you can multiply square root -1 wit a real number...


Its a methode to express positive a symmetrical phasor as symmetrical phasor with same magnitude and relative angel an a additional shift component.

a = /120 deg
j = /90 deg

symmetrical component, no
A mathematical transform from the phase domain (and back) to the sequence domain, that is where 'a' is used.
Positive or normal phase rotation
Negative, reverse rotation, L-L fault
Zero sequence = 0 phase difference between all 3 phases, a ground fault

This reduces complex unbalanced 3 phase calculations to algebraic ones.
The work by Fortescue was voted by the IEEE as the most important paper on power engineering of the 20th century.

In a paper presented in 1918, Fortescue demonstrated that any set of N unbalanced phasors — that is, any such "polyphase" signal — could be expressed as the sum of N symmetrical sets of balanced phasors known as symmetrical components. The paper was judged to be the most important power engineering paper in the twentieth century.

He was awarded the Franklin Institute's 1932 Elliott Cresson Medal for his contributions to the field of electrical engineering.

https://www.energyscienceforum.com/files/fortescue/methodofsymmetrical.pdf

 

[trl]

I must say, probably to be expected, that I found this article frustrating.

Well, Stereophile changed the way they write articles in the past few years, so I am not surprised, although based on the below paragraph, seems that upgrading the electrical panel and some wiring and also adding a regenerator did helped in dealing with mains hum:

"The sonic improvement
Hungerford and DeVito encouraged me to use the AudioQuest Niagara 7000 in the "front end" to isolate the digital gear but to plug the amps directly into the wall, each into its own 20A circuit. The before/after difference was beyond anything I had imagined. All the 60Hz hum had been eliminated. Finally!"

A bit of more dive-deep into this mains hum issue would've been more helpful, because this might be the result of a poor grounding or an in-house ground loop from the audio chain.

However, upgrading the electricity box, the electrical panel and also changing Aluminum wires with Copper is definitely a great thing to do, because the short-circuit current admissible on each circuit will increase (lower risk of home fire), same for the fault-current to the Ground (fault GND resistance will get lowered), but performing such works just to "improve" the sound makes no sense to me.

Measurements of Ground resistance before and after the works might help in finding some details about that mains hum the author is speaking about.

Good news about such articles is that people will start upgrading their old electrical panels, boxes, wiring and they're going to install a new grounding too, so definitely less work for the firefighters (God forbid of a fire due to poor electrical system).

 

[anmpr1]

However, upgrading the electricity box, the electrical panel and also changing Aluminum wires with Copper is definitely a great thing to do, because the short-circuit current admissible on each circuit will... lower risk of home fire...

I'm not trying to be a crank, but seriously asking, if one's house is up to code, and wired 'properly', then how much 'risk' is decreased by changing this stuff out? How high is the risk in the first place, and how much is it reduced? Or is this all simply in realm of 'theoretical possibility' with little application in the real world?

I admit to not following the electrical fire beat, but I seem to have read more about electric cars catching fire in a garage, than electrical panel boxes exploding.

 

[DonH56]

I'm not trying to be a crank, but seriously asking, if one's house is up to code, and wired 'properly', then how much 'risk' is decreased by changing this stuff out? How high is the risk in the first place, and how much is it reduced? Or is this all simply in realm of 'theoretical possibility' with little application in the real world?

I admit to not following the electrical fire beat, but I seem to have read more about electric cars catching fire in a garage, than electrical panel boxes exploding.

There was a period of time during which Al wires were connected to copper bus bars in home electrical service boxes. The copper-aluminum interface was often poor and the wires could loosen over time and arc, causing fires. It was a serious issue for a while. These days it is a known and well-understood issue with a variety of solutions. In the 1980's when I was helping rewire commercial properties we often found very scary service conditions. I no longer do that sort of thing (except in my own home) but suspect the biggest issue to day would be homes (etc.) that have not been updated to current code.

 

[bigguyca]

There was a period of time during which Al wires were connected to copper bus bars in home electrical service boxes. The copper-aluminum interface was often poor and the wires could loosen over time and arc, causing fires. It was a serious issue for a while. These days it is a known and well-understood issue with a variety of solutions. In the 1980's when I was helping rewire commercial properties we often found very scary service conditions. I no longer do that sort of thing (except in my own home) but suspect the biggest issue to day would be homes (etc.) that have not been updated to current code.

The current National Electric Code is from 2020. Except for houses built to the 2020 code, what percentage of houses have been upgraded to the 2020 code? My guess is less than 1%. Looks like there are a lot of issues based on your claim!

 

[Ingenieur]

He said the improvement on his HT system was so great that his 90 year old hearing impaired mother in law did not need closed captions any longer.

Think about that.

 

[Robin L]

He said the improvement on his HT system was so great that his 90 year old hearing impaired mother in law did not need closed captions any longer.

Think about that.

It's like fairy dust was spilled on his electrical system!

 

[trl]

if one's house is up to code, and wired 'properly', then how much 'risk' is decreased by changing this stuff out?

I don't think there's anything needed to be changed then, but every now and then (5 to 10 years) we still need to call an authorized electrician to measure our Grounding Earth impedance, Prospective Earth Fault Current and Prospective Short Circuit Current too. If these values are not OK, then we need to take action, otherwise electric shocks might happen or even fire may occur when loading circuits too much or when causing short circuit.

I take the electricity very seriously, so do I have RCBO (B-curve, Type A) installed on each circuit in my home and also a general AFDD+ in front of the RCBOs. My Earth impedance is 3.4 Ohms and PSCC can easily cover C-curve, although I'm using B-curve. Hope this helps.

 

[bigguyca]

I'm not trying to be a crank, but seriously asking, if one's house is up to code, and wired 'properly', then how much 'risk' is decreased by changing this stuff out? How high is the risk in the first place, and how much is it reduced? Or is this all simply in realm of 'theoretical possibility' with little application in the real world?

I admit to not following the electrical fire beat, but I seem to have read more about electric cars catching fire in a garage, than electrical panel boxes exploding.

In the U.S. are you saying up to the 2020 National Electric Code? Such level of compliance is very unlikely (estimate less than 1%) unless the house was built to the 2020 code and inspected by competent inspectors.

 

[Ingenieur]

In the U.S. are you saying up to the 2020 National Electric Code? Such level of compliance is very unlikely (estimate less than 1%) unless the house was built to the 2020 code and inspected by competent inspectors.

How many states have even adopted 2020?
Some are using 2008. Lol

NEC® Adoption List

 

[bigguyca]

How many states have even adopted 2020?
Some are using 2008. Lol

NEC® Adoption List

Very true, however 2020 is the most recent version, so when someones say up to code, and they didn't specify their local code and provide a link, then it makes sense to use the 2020 code.

You should understand that it is often cities or counties in the U.S. that adopt the code, or a least, a code. In the U.S. the states aren't the only controlling bodies. You should also understand that local governing bodies often make their own changes to a version of the code, such that their regulations are unique.

IMO Mike Holt provides the best analysis and information on the National Electric Code. It is helpful that you provided the link.

 

[DonH56]

The current National Electric Code is from 2020. Except for houses built to the 2020 code, what percentage of houses have been upgraded to the 2020 code? My guess is less than 1%. Looks like there are a lot of issues based on your claim!

I am not sure when the code was updated with respect to the Al/Cu interface; certainly (hopefully!) long before 2020. My grandparent's house, where I lived around 1980 for a while, had tube-and-knob wiring. They offered to pay me to upgrade the wiring, but I declined -- didn't really have the skill set and tools to do all the in-wall routing (fishing), and did not want the liability. I think I was still an apprentice then, not sure -- it was a part-time job for extra money to pay for college; my main job was as a TV/stereo repair tech. We rewired a lot of businesses that were in buildings up to maybe the early 1970's; I have a vague memory of a surge around the late 1970's to early 1980's when Al replaced Cu in a lot of local feeds in our area, then graduated and lost track. Most of it was adding special pressure/cold-welded links to connect the Al feeds to Cu bus bars in the service panels. Some businesses used Al for power runs inside to sub-panels so we had to fix those too (think manufacturing with big machines running on 440 V). I would guess there are plenty of holdovers but most of the problem places have been fixed. Do not really know.

I did learn then and since that electrical, and ventilation, codes can be really, really messy. About ten years ago we finished our basement and I talked with the electrical contractor and the local inspectors. The "code" was a hodge-podge of national, international, and local specs that was extremely convoluted. There was a move to adopt more generic standards across the country (and world) that led to all sorts of specs that made no sense in the local area, so state and local changes were made. You had to start with a base spec and wade through pages and pages of modifications to figure out what was required in any given area.

 

[Ingenieur]

Very true, however 2020 is the most recent version, so when someones say up to code, and they didn't specify their local code and provide a link, then it makes sense to use the 2020 code.

You should understand that it is often cities or counties in the U.S. that adopt the code, or a least, a code. In the U.S. the states aren't the only controlling bodies. You should also understand that local governing bodies often make their own changes to a version of the code, such that their regulations are unique.

IMO Mike Holt provides the best analysis and information on the National Electric Code. It is helpful that you provided the link.

I 'should' understand?

I am the LAHJ for several categories
Elec inspection and plan review, res and comm/Iindust, elevators.
Only ~30% have adopted 2020
They refer to it as an 'Edition'

 

[anmpr1]

In the U.S. are you saying up to the 2020 National Electric Code? Such level of compliance is very unlikely (estimate less than 1%) unless the house was built to the 2020 code and inspected by competent inspectors.

Yes. Certainly depends on the time-frame. My house, built in 1947, was renovated three years ago. Original wiring was cloth insulated. I sleep better at night knowing it's all been replaced. I'm sure there are a lot of old houses out there that have never been updated.

I never got the chance to compare the 'highs', 'front to back depth', and 'pace and timing' of the cloth wrapped wire to the new stuff, so I can't comment on that. Fremer would probably know.

 

[Spkrdctr]

He said the improvement on his HT system was so great that his 90 year old hearing impaired mother in law did not need closed captions any longer.

Think about that.

It was a bonified miracle! He did leave out that fact that his neighbor who was shopping down the street, heard such sweet music coming from his house he almost cried listening to it.