Stereophile doubles down on the snake oil!

[TLke893]

Mahler 8th symphony, Gewandhaus Dresden, 2023, second row. The choirs were up in the stalls behind the stage, and for the finale there were some brass players off to the sides and behind me.

I do agree in general but I think you confused the location.

Not true for all genres. Before the classical period, a lot of compositions required ´multi-channel´ performances, particularly Baroque and Renaissance sacred music.

Heinrich Schütz (1585-1672) arranged singers or choirs around the audience on several compositions. This has been well researched. He wanted to increase the impact of his compositions.

 

[Ken1951]

I Think Getz would sound a lot better in surround

Everything we listen to is "fake" and a very pale approximation of what is the reality of music. I played sax for a long time, mostly tenor. And even in a large space a tenor can overpower. One definitely hears part of what is being played from all around. Back when I owned and played LPs I had a treasured copy of this album and loved it. LPs are what they are, I no longer have any interest in them but totally understand those who do and I do miss the process and the album covers and liner notes, but for me those days are past. I enjoy streaming and switch my AVR into 7 channel stereo which gives just some slight ambiance to the room which has 18 foot ceilings. Different strokes - enjoy what you have and like and let others do likewise. Except for the stories about wires and magic boxes and that $$$$$$$ = Always Better!

 

[Balle Clorin]

Maybe unfair, but to me it seems Martin Colloms has been muddying the hi-fi waters for long time.

At the end of the article John Atkinson refers to a 1995 article by Malcolm Omar Hawksford entitled, "The Essex Echo 1995: Electrical Signal Propagation & Cable Theory". That article seems to deal with the speed of propagation of signals within cables, arguing that aspects of the cable, e.g. diameter, can adversely affect transmission.

Since I'm no electrical engineer, scientist, or mathematician it's all gobbledygook to me but might be comprehensible to other people. The question is -- allowing for its from validity -- is it relevant to audio signals?

No

 

[Sal1950]

The point is quite obvious! Multi-channel music is an oximoron! All actual peformances are in front of you! Same is true of all studio arrangements! No engineer sits in a console and says "I think we need a little more bass guitar" from the ceiling channel behind and above the listening area! No music is ever played or produced in that manner! Its simply a new fangled way of portrayng reverb and delay! It sounds just as fake as the old AVR's with 20 different digitized "surround programs" that no one ever used!

Another post that further reveals your total ignorance of recording methods for at least 60 years now.
Further discussion with you is pointless.

 

[WisEd]

When I bought my first real system in Korea in 2008, I spent just under 1 million Korean won (about $730 USD). It consisted of an ex display Rotel integrated amp, some Polk floorstanders which were end of line for sale on Ebay.

I was already playing everything from my computer (CDs, audio files, some streaming) so the guy who was selling me the Rotel said, “You need a good DAC and speaker cables” and showed me what he recommended. Price for the DAC? 80000 KRW ($58 USD). The 6 metres of cable? 100000 KRW ($65 USD) with banana plugs. I remember him saying, “This is great cable so will last you ages”. Well, he was right as I’m still using it although I have changed my amp twice and my speakers once. Times have certainly changed. Bet he couldn’t work in a store like that now…

Rotel has always been a good brand. I used 2 of their amps in my surround system.

Another post that further reveals your total ignorance of recording methods for at least 60 years now.
Further discussion with you is pointless.

Please illuminate us!

 

[mhardy6647]

Oops I forgot the pic! Real surround sound.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Probably goes without saying*, but you can, FYI and FWIW, paste an image directly without going the Dropbox route, @WisEd

If your images are too big, they're easily resized (e.g., in the WinTel world, with a drop down on the default Windows image viewer.

or, if you're like me**, copy and paste it into, e.g., PowerPoint and then just copy it again. It'll be nicely compressed in 'file' size and paste nicely into a post here at ASR. This somewhat inelegant route is also good for copying and pasting non-compliant image formats (e.g., .WEBP files) into ASR.

_____________
* which, one will note, does not for some reason stop me from saying it.
** heaven forefend!

 

[kemmler3D]

So what would you call it if not a fad or a hugely successful snake-oil marketing plan?

Functional home decor I guess.

 

[WisEd]

Probably goes without saying*, but you can, FYI and FWIW, paste an image directly without going the Dropbox route, @WisEd

If your images are too big, they're easily resized (e.g., in the WinTel world, with a drop down on the default Windows image viewer.

View attachment 456899

or, if you're like me**, copy and paste it into, e.g., PowerPoint and then just copy it again. It'll be nicely compressed in 'file' size and paste nicely into a post here at ASR. This somewhat inelegant route is also good for copying and pasting non-compliant image formats (e.g., .WEBP files) into ASR.

View attachment 456902
_____________
* which, one will note, does not for some reason stop me from saying it.
** heaven forefend!

 

[TKM]

Longtime lurker here.

My comment is about audio cable snake oil. I worked producing, tracking and mixing albums from 1993-2009 in a respected Los Angeles area recording studio. Since then I've been in radio production.

I was always amazed at the money "audiophiles" were spending for high end audio gear when the patch bays in the studio used Radio Shack sourced red or black RCA cables, either 18 or 16 gauge, a dozen for a couple dollars. One time a cable failed and I took it to a friend of a friend’s listening session where he was showing off $30,000/pair six-foot-tall speakers in his sound room that he had just bought off display as the Las Vegas CES. I brought out the cable and asked those present why they were spending insane amounts of money on gear when THIS is what their music was made with. The owner of the speakers kept the cable and I later saw it on his desk in his law firm office, but the rest of the group was saying things like the front end of music production was irrelevant to their backend playback systems. They would never admit it but to me they were using the gear as eq to make up for deficiencies in their listening environment.

 

[Thomas Savage]

So what would you call it if not a fad or a hugely successful snake-oil marketing plan?

Marriage?

 

[Sal1950]

Marriage?

That's pretty close !
Nice to hear from ya Thomas

 

[MattHooper]

They would never admit it but to me they were using the gear as eq to make up for deficiencies in their listening environment.

This has always been the conundrum that expensive cable enthusiasts face:
Every time they place some new expensive cables in their systems and revel in the “ new sonic information revealed by these higher resolution cables” they are simultaneously evaluating the bog standard pro cables used to make the recordings they’re listening to.
Every single time they talk about some new detail their expensive cable is “revealing” they are simultaneously talking about details the cheap cables used to make the recording were perfectly capable of transmitting as well. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be there for them to hear on the record recording.

 

[Alexander Gödde]

Being a modern "audiophile" requires constant doublethink, where a thing can simultaneously matter and don't matter sonically, often determined solely by the thing's price tag.

 

[WisEd]

Being a modern "audiophile" requires constant doublethink, where a thing can simultaneously matter and don't matter sonically, often determined solely by the thing's price tag.

I can certainly hear the difference among cables......When my wife screams at me when she sees the bill. The more expensive the are the luder the "treble" gets!

 

[OldHvyMec]

Every single time they talk about some new detail their expensive cable is “revealing” they are simultaneously talking about details the cheap cables used to make the recording were perfectly capable of transmitting as well. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be there for them to hear on the record recording.

If the cables they bought were AES48 compliant, they wouldn't hear a difference. That has been my experience for the last 30 years. Ralph (Atmosphere) and Brian Cheney proved that to me at a listening session at CES in the late 1990s. There was a difference in sound between the compliant cables and 500.00+ dollar (at the time) XLR cables. There was ZERO difference in an ASE48 complaint preamp, power amp, and cables. Add that weird cable from SR (I think it was SR), and it definitely had a sound that everyone could hear. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't what Mr. Atmosphere (Ralph) was expecting with his gear. No noise at all with a 15.00 pro cable, and there WAS a noise issue with the other.

Ralph pointed it out.

The cables were simple Pro cables marked ASE48. They cost a whoppin' 15.00 usd for a 25-foot run. Copper terminal ends and copper wire.

BTW, if you get a 4- 6 dB increase in gain, it is NOT a compliant system. BUT it may still have adequate noise rejection qualities.

I'm sure you knew that, though, ay?

Regards

 

[Palmer]

This has always been the conundrum that expensive cable enthusiasts face:
Every time they place some new expensive cables in their systems and revel in the “ new sonic information revealed by these higher resolution cables” they are simultaneously evaluating the bog standard pro cables used to make the recordings they’re listening to.
Every single time they talk about some new detail their expensive cable is “revealing” they are simultaneously talking about details the cheap cables used to make the recording were perfectly capable of transmitting as well. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be there for them to hear on the record recording.

Not particularly listening to music released after Pro Tools arrived, and I had one of the first on an Apple IIfx - but if one ever had to remove just one channel board out of an SSL, Harrison, Neve, heck Trident, or the like - cabling was never really much on your mind, after.

 

[qirex]

This has always been the conundrum that expensive cable enthusiasts face:
Every time they place some new expensive cables in their systems and revel in the “ new sonic information revealed by these higher resolution cables” they are simultaneously evaluating the bog standard pro cables used to make the recordings they’re listening to.
Every single time they talk about some new detail their expensive cable is “revealing” they are simultaneously talking about details the cheap cables used to make the recording were perfectly capable of transmitting as well. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be there for them to hear on the record recording.

I like imagining Henry Rollins listening to old punk 7" singles, many of which were recorded on cassette 4-tracks, on his half million dollar McIntosh/Wilson system

 

[qirex]

Sure, you want "the sound of the studio session" but don't forget this was the studio for a lot of 80s and 90s groups:

 

[DSJR]

The point is quite obvious! Multi-channel music is an oximoron! All actual peformances are in front of you! Same is true of all studio arrangements! No engineer sits in a console and says "I think we need a little more bass guitar" from the ceiling channel behind and above the listening area! No music is ever played or produced in that manner! Its simply a new fangled way of portrayng reverb and delay! It sounds just as fake as the old AVR's with 20 different digitized "surround programs" that no one ever used!

Got to give a quick comment. I don't have the room nor the inclination, but I *have* heard some lovely 'surround' music rather than film presentations, where the action is all in front, the surround speakers better presenting the venue reverb and atmosphere in a very convincing way to 'immerse' the listener more in the venue and performance, more as if one is sitting in a decent seat at the venue.

 

[Palmer]

Sure, you want "the sound of the studio session" but don't forget this was the studio for a lot of 80s and 90s groups:
View attachment 457193

As someone who recorded with, for example, DEVO back in '83; I can tell you - we all had those in our bedrooms, but nobody called it Studio. Just saying.