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Soniclife

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It is important to understand, that when you are able to buy anything with a (similar) discount, then the discount itself is not an incentive anymore.
It may be an incentive to push products that raise the prices across the board, if there is nothing stopping you moving the product on soon after discounted purchase, and you can get more than you bought it for.
 

anmpr1

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A) Every reviewer can buy anything with a discount (which is basicly similar across the industry). It is a known fact...

B) ...nobody ever denied that.

C) It is important to understand, that when you are able to buy anything with a (similar) discount, then the discount itself is not an incentive anymore.

D) If all reviewers were buying stuff with a discount, and then one just got something for free - that would be an incentive.

A) It is a known fact? How would anyone 'know' if it is not disclosed? Since it is a 'known' fact, can you tell us the percentage of discount? That, to me, would be the real important thing to know.

B) The issue is not that anyone is denying the practice. No one ever said that, as far as I know. Rather, the problem is that the practice is not being disclosed up front, when the review is tendered. The only way anyone could suspect that it is a practice is that sometimes the review will mention that the review sample was bought. That said, I've never seen anyone mention the amount of the discount.

C) That would be true if anyone can participate. Can any consumer, then, obtain the review discount from the manufacturer? Could I get the same discount as the reviewer? If not, then wouldn't that suggest the discount remains an incentive?

D) The discount remains an 'incentive' (by the way, that's your word), as long as its application is limited to reviewers, and not the general public. The difference between the examples you cite is that the person who received the item free simply got a bigger incentive.

I'm really not sure of your point; what you are trying to say. Are you saying that discounts and special product consideration are not a problem in the reviewing industry? I'm saying that they are in effect bribes. How else can you look at them? A company is offering a favor, and expects something in return. But it doesn't have to be simply a discount on a purchase. As I said, free trips, lodging, meals, a constant flow of product to listen to, and so on. All that ought to be discussed up front, so the consumer can make their own judgement as to the value of the information being reported.

Again, I'm not saying that all reviewers are shills and whores... um, I mean ethically compromised. It is, however, really up to the magazine publishers to impose ethical standards. Any business I ever worked at, or with, had them, in order to prevent even the appearance of fraud. FWIW, when I was in the work force, if I'd have taken a product at a discount from a company my employer was doing contract work with, I'd have been fired.
 

elberoth

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It may be an incentive to push products that raise the prices across the board, if there is nothing stopping you moving the product on soon after discounted purchase, and you can get more than you bought it for.

Usually, there is 24 month period when you can't sell the procuct bought on accomodation pricing.
 

chebum

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Since it is a 'known' fact, can you tell us the percentage of discount?

I believe the discount cannot be the same for all products due to different business models. For example, a direct-sale type company cannot offer the same discount as a company working through distributors and dealers.
 

anmpr1

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I believe the discount cannot be the same for all products due to different business models. For example, a direct-sale type company cannot offer the same discount as a company working through distributors and dealers.
I can reasonably understand offering a product that is 'second hand, scratch and dent' along with factoring in to the discount the cost of packing and shipping it back. If the discount is modest, as above, that is one thing. If it is a 'wholesale' or 'dealer' cost sale, then that is really pushing the bounds. In any case, reviewers ought to be required to list the discount, and part of the contract should be that the item cannot be subsequently sold on the open market (or even to a friend) for a prescribed period--maybe two or three years. @elberoth mentions this, in his comment.

Again, I've written about when I was working, and company policy on this sort of thing. The nearest I can think of, is the Microsoft HUP program. We were allowed to purchase a personal use copy of Office Enterprise for, I think, ten dollars. You can find the price on line--it changed recently.

The difference between the MS HUP program and buying an expensive speaker is, at least in my mind, MS Office is only worth about ten dollars, and if I didn't get the discount, I wouldn't care, but use the free office suite that is out there. Plus, I wasn't in a position of shilling reviews of Office, which Microsoft would never ask me to do, because Office has become mostly unusable and frustrating since the 'ribbon' took the place of drop down context menus. And for those interested, Outlook is still as flaky as ever. LOL
 

chebum

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If the discount is modest, as above, that is one thing. If it is a 'wholesale' or 'dealer' cost sale, then that is really pushing the bounds.

I believe most reviewers ask for a payment to review the product. A discount for the product itself isn't a great deal, actually.

I'm making and selling computer software. 95% of bloggers I contact for review ask for a payment. I believe my team contacted about 200 bloggers this year. Prices I saw are between $100 and $2000 per review. Since almost every review is a commercial project, they cannot write badly about the product. Otherwise, they won't get any new clients.

Some bloggers wrote about us for free and it was their incentive, but it's a minority of publications.

Almost nobody discloses it's a paid review.
 

mansr

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I believe most reviewers ask for a payment to review the product. A discount for the product itself isn't a great deal, actually.

I'm making and selling computer software. 95% of bloggers I contact for review ask for a payment. I believe my team contacted about 200 bloggers this year. Prices I saw are between $100 and $2000 per review. Since almost every review is a commercial project, they cannot write badly about the product. Otherwise, they won't get any new clients.

Some bloggers wrote about us for free and it was their incentive, but it's a minority of publications.

Almost nobody discloses it's a paid review.
What you describe is not "reviewing." It is advertising:
1574345451977.png


I guess bloggers are cheaper than traditional ad agencies.
 
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SIY

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A) It is a known fact? How would anyone 'know' if it is not disclosed? Since it is a 'known' fact, can you tell us the percentage of discount? That, to me, would be the real important thing to know.

As someone else mentioned, it depends on the product and manufacturer. I can only speak from my own experience, but it ranges from zero discount to "now that's you're done with the review, just keep it." Sadly, the latter was not the case for a couple of superb items I reviewed and badly covet. :D

Typically for more expensive stuff, when I've asked, it's usually dealer wholesale.
 

anmpr1

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I'm making and selling computer software. 95% of bloggers I contact for review ask for a payment. I believe my team contacted about 200 bloggers this year. Prices I saw are between $100 and $2000 per review. Since almost every review is a commercial project, they cannot write badly about the product. Otherwise, they won't get any new clients.

Almost nobody discloses it's a paid review.
Yeah...what you are doing is buying an advertisement. Unfortunately, you don't get to look at the copy before they publish it. Or do you?

I think it was Frank van Alstine (had a hi-fi store that specialized in modding Dyna and Hafler gear, mostly) who wanted Stereophile to review his amp, or preamp, or whatever it was. Frank tells how the magazine's publisher suggested that he take out some ads. Peter Aczel (who wasn't taking ads at the time) listened to Frank's device, didn't care for it, writing that he couldn't recommend Frank van for Ludwig van... It would have been better for Frank if he'd just taken out some ads. Then, for his dollars he'd likely have gotten a 'pretty good' review.

In the '70s one could just buy a big Pioneer (or other major brand) receiver and not worry. You could be reasonably certain that you bought value for your dollar. You really didn't have to read the reviews, since they mostly confirmed the specs. Today, that is not the case anymore. Manufacturers are not routinely publishing specs, and reviewers are mostly worthless.
 

Robin L

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. . . just for fun, a random comment from a Stereophile "review":

within reach?
Submitted by tonykaz on November 15, 2019 - 4:35pm

A $50,000 tone Arm is within reach ??? ( is there gravity on the Planet you live on ? )
On the whole, vinyl is well-out of reach for todays households.
Tony in Venice

View attachment 38973
Said Planet being MF's Analog Planet. Tonykaz is a frequent and accurate critic of ludicrous and overpriced audio gear, having worked in that particular field for a long time.
 
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chebum

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Unfortunately, you don't get to look at the copy before they publish it. Or do you

Sometimes, but not always.

Frank tells how the magazine's publisher suggested that he take out some ads.

Well, that's the same as paying for a cover directly. Most of tech bloggers are small and they don't have publishers. Things are simpler with them.

and reviewers are mostly worthless.

If customers aren't paying for the reviewer's time, somebody should. It's the same as with "free" software.
 

Robin L

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No doubt. Stereophile is a publication that you must read CAREFULLY in order to make good sense out of it and use it productively.
Sorta like Pravda.
 

chebum

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What you describe is not "reviewing." It is advertising:

Reviews seems to be equal to advertising these days. If a magazine criticises, they don't get any stuff for a review anymore. For example, Toyota stopped leasing any cars to https://drive.ru for tests after one of their cars didn't win in a head-to-head comparison. Now, if the magazine wants to review a Toyota car, they have to buy it or to find a dealer who isn't afraid of Toyota's head office.

I know that these statements do not apply to me.

You're that 5% who don't. A respect for you.
 

Kal Rubinson

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You're that 5% who don't. A respect for you.
Thank you but I do not think I am unique. Your general criticism should be focused on those individuals and specific media where you have identified such abuse.
 

chebum

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Your general criticism should be focused on those individuals and specific media where you have identified such abuse.

I hope it is related mostly to my niche. However, not every website I used to work with was small.

I believe the reason for the change is that currently advertisers pay for a publication, not readers. People used to buy magazines, but no more. Currently, all information is free and magazines heavily depend on advertiser's money. Advertisers are clients, not readers. Every business do what pleases client.

Drive.ru told about their issue publicly. According to SimilarWeb, they have 2,5 million visitors every month. They are bigger than Stereophile in monthly views. Yet, they cannot write and tell what they think if they still want to get cars for tests. They bought two cars for tests themselves after that, but no more.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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1. All review publications (that I know of) depend ad revenue to survive, whether they charge subscribers or not.
2. I will not dispute your findings but do re-iterate that they do not apply universally.
 
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graz_lag

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A) It is a known fact? How would anyone 'know' if it is not disclosed? Since it is a 'known' fact, can you tell us the percentage of discount? That, to me, would be the real important thing to know.

B) The issue is not that anyone is denying the practice. No one ever said that, as far as I know. Rather, the problem is that the practice is not being disclosed up front, when the review is tendered. The only way anyone could suspect that it is a practice is that sometimes the review will mention that the review sample was bought. That said, I've never seen anyone mention the amount of the discount.

C) That would be true if anyone can participate. Can any consumer, then, obtain the review discount from the manufacturer? Could I get the same discount as the reviewer? If not, then wouldn't that suggest the discount remains an incentive?

D) The discount remains an 'incentive' (by the way, that's your word), as long as its application is limited to reviewers, and not the general public. The difference between the examples you cite is that the person who received the item free simply got a bigger incentive.

I'm really not sure of your point; what you are trying to say. Are you saying that discounts and special product consideration are not a problem in the reviewing industry? I'm saying that they are in effect bribes. How else can you look at them? A company is offering a favor, and expects something in return. But it doesn't have to be simply a discount on a purchase. As I said, free trips, lodging, meals, a constant flow of product to listen to, and so on. All that ought to be discussed up front, so the consumer can make their own judgement as to the value of the information being reported.

Again, I'm not saying that all reviewers are shills and whores... um, I mean ethically compromised. It is, however, really up to the magazine publishers to impose ethical standards. Any business I ever worked at, or with, had them, in order to prevent even the appearance of fraud. FWIW, when I was in the work force, if I'd have taken a product at a discount from a company my employer was doing contract work with, I'd have been fired.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-benjamin-netanyahu-indicted-for-bribery-and

After the indictment confirmation, his lawyers promptly announced: does anyone seriously believe he's not enough knowledge to start up an Audio Hi-Fi review publication?
 

anmpr1

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Here's the thing--I get the fact that someone has to pay the bills. Web hosting and working out a print magazine are not cheap undertakings. All I'm saying is that there has to be some accountability. And some ethical standards. It's almost like pro wrestling. Back in the old NWA days, they kept the inner workings secret. Few new what was going on. Then Vince took over, exposed the business, and now it's 'sports entertainment', or whatever he's calling it. Most of the audio review sites should just be labled 'audio entertainment'. That is, a scripted work, having nothing to do with reality.
 
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