olds1959special
Major Contributor
Is it okay to place identical subs next to each speaker, one fed the L and one fed the R for stereo bass?
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Stereo subwoofers
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olds1959special
Major Contributor
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- #3
Except for this album, that has two bass players panned left and right! Although low bass is not supposed to be locatable, I can feel where the bass output from each sub is coming from, so having one by each speaker seems to create a more balanced image, and the potential for stereo sub bass, which this record definitely has.
DVDdoug
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I have a pair of subs at the bottom of my left & right "speaker stack", but they are mono... both connected to the one subwoofer output on my AVR.
Like Chrispy says, very few recordings have stereo bass. If you make a "vocal remover" by subtracting left from right to remove the center, the bass usually goes-away along with any centered vocals.
Low bass isn't generally localizable because of the long wavelengths and putting bass in both channels allows people without subs to maximally utilize both woofers together.
Like Chrispy says, very few recordings have stereo bass. If you make a "vocal remover" by subtracting left from right to remove the center, the bass usually goes-away along with any centered vocals.
Low bass isn't generally localizable because of the long wavelengths and putting bass in both channels allows people without subs to maximally utilize both woofers together.
Stereo bass is far from settled science, there is a facinating thread that covers stereo bass and many other speaker subjects by the leading scientists in the field. The "safest" strategy is to preserve stereo bass ... if it is there you get the sonic benifts, if the recording monos the bass it make no difference.
The reason the subject is so contrversial is that it calls into question a lot of audio dogma especially when it comes to sub woofer integration strategies. The thread is long but is one of the best on the site.
'A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-speakers-with-major-audio-luminaries.62951/
The reason the subject is so contrversial is that it calls into question a lot of audio dogma especially when it comes to sub woofer integration strategies. The thread is long but is one of the best on the site.
'A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-speakers-with-major-audio-luminaries.62951/
Only self appointed major luminaries allowed!
Setting speakers/subs up for one album? Might have to check this one out, tho. Good luck!
Sokel
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The thread is this one:
And I agree, stereo bass is one of the things that has been deliberately avoided, probably because of inconvenience or VERY old dogmas.
Keith_W
Master Contributor
If you believe in stereo bass, the best placement for subwoofers is on either side of the listening position.
Contrary to what some people say, the majority of recordings I have examined with Audacity DO have L-R differences down to 20Hz (disclaimer, my music is close to 100% classical). If you want to examine your recordings yourself, split a selected track into dual mono. Invert one of the tracks, then sum both tracks. Check that your method is correct by doing this with a mono recording. If you execute the procedure correctly, you will get zero sound. Then try it on one of your favourite tracks. YMMV.
It will cost you nothing to set your subs up for mono or stereo bass. You can try it and see if you hear a difference. FYI: in my system, I am not convinced I hear a difference if they are stereo or mono. But setting up the subs in the extreme front two corners of my room does make the sound seem wider, as opposed to right next to the speakers.
Contrary to what some people say, the majority of recordings I have examined with Audacity DO have L-R differences down to 20Hz (disclaimer, my music is close to 100% classical). If you want to examine your recordings yourself, split a selected track into dual mono. Invert one of the tracks, then sum both tracks. Check that your method is correct by doing this with a mono recording. If you execute the procedure correctly, you will get zero sound. Then try it on one of your favourite tracks. YMMV.
It will cost you nothing to set your subs up for mono or stereo bass. You can try it and see if you hear a difference. FYI: in my system, I am not convinced I hear a difference if they are stereo or mono. But setting up the subs in the extreme front two corners of my room does make the sound seem wider, as opposed to right next to the speakers.
JSmith
Master Contributor
A quick FYI on that... they're most certainly not self appointed and have all well and truly earned such status.
JSmith
kemmler3D
Master Contributor
I have stereo subs in my office, basically in the corners on either side of my LP. And in informal testing I think I could detect some directionality with tones down to about 65hz. Below that it seemed to revert to mono. That said I don't think I've noticed any cool effects from actual music yet. On the other hand I haven't been trying to find or notice any either. Ymmv.
IMO, the main reason for using 'stereo' subs is for controlling the room's eigentones, that is, its standing waves. Placing the subs at mid points on opposite walls does a lot to ameliorate them. Read Paragraph 3 Section 4:
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olds1959special
Major Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #13
The “Double Bass” recording is proof stereo bass exists! Also I read about Dr. David Griesinger, engineer at Lexicon, who is a proponent of stereo bass. When I listen to this recording, I feel like the second subwoofer adds a whole new dimension of space to the music, and everything is symmetrical now. I can’t understand why they say bass isn’t localizable below 80 Hz because it seems to be for me, even though my LPF’s are set to much lower than that, more like 45 Hz. Here’s a picture showing what my setup looks like!
I'm pretty sure if you did some blind/double blind comparisons in your room playing that album, you'd be surprised how much of the localization was due to harmonics and not the lowest fundamentals. That said, I run a similar configuration to yours in my 2 channel room and it "just sounds right".
Robocop
Member
Is it better to run subs outside the main speakers as shown?
Thomas Lund of Genelec is a proponent of Stereo Bass, his paper on AE (Auditory Envelopment) is very interesting https://assets.swoogo.com/uploads/4646601-673c03ab61c93.pdf
theREALdotnet
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I love that album!
Feel?
In my experience, given that:
- the room is small (i.e. a normal home listening room, not a performance venue)
- the subwoofers are low-passed and don't get the full-range signal
you will not be able to locate the low frequency source from the listening position, even if it is mixed to one or the other stereo channel. If you do, then the subwoofers likely emit higher frequency distortions, like port chuffing or harmonics produced by the subs themselves or by interaction with nearby objects. Even in that case, the detectability of the subwoofers doesn't interfere with the perception of the stereo image produced by the main speakers.
It is possible to mix bass signals with varying phase between the channels, so that the bass is perceived as "moving around". I've heard this in a Billie Eilish album. This is 100% post-processing trickery and doesn't occur in acoustical recordings. You will not get that effect with mono bass.
In my opinion, the ability to smooth out bass response through placement of multiple mono subwoofers in a room far outweighs the downside of not getting the Billie Eilish effect. YMMV.
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olds1959special
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I’m not sure I agree. I am listening to other albums with the bass panned to one side and I feel I can locate the sub bass, the sound coming from each sub, just fine, and this adds to the overall sense of dimension in the music.
So you are using high level connections with your speakers/subs?
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He was the lead scientist at Lexicon. He has a youtube talk about the low frequency envelopment and spaciousness that can come from stereo bass along with numerous papers about it on his site.
He added processing to Lexicon's (called Bass Enhance) to try and increase the spaciousness and envelopment in a room with systems that had the ability to go deep in stereo. It really does change the feeling of the room when it is engaged, side walls sort of melt away and changes the feeling of the acoustic space. It isn't about localization.
