Understood, some will always prefer to not be guided by all the research on AES, etc. It's always a choice.
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Stereo Sub Vs Dual Mono
- Thread starter My adventures in stereo
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There is always someone who wants to create something different. Getting rid of the mixing desk is pretty out there... I wonder how will they mix a film soundtrack?Your designs look interesting for sure, but you are correct, a bit too far away. Hopefully I will eventually have something like this in the future, but in the meanwhile, if you were to visit this side of pond to hear non-mono bass (and a whole lot more!) https://www.mixonline.com/recording...etworks-debuts-purpose-built-reference-studio
Perhaps you could contact them and ask. My only interest would be playback at that kind and I have no mixing desk in my living room
I have an Antimode X4, with that I can switch from stereo to dual mono with the press of a button on the remote, but I haven't got that hooked up to anything at the moment. Will try to remember to do that in the not too distant future and report back.
That's not it at all.
I have that capability as well.
My experience with stereo subs vs dual mono subs, is that it varies so much recording-by-recording, that no generalizations can be made beyond that one..
But it could be argued that if the stereo bass is indeed in the recording it should probably be reproduced that way too.
Sure, whatever floats one's boat.But it could be argued that if the stereo bass is indeed in the recording it should probably be reproduced that way too.
For me, the philosophy that recordings should be "faithfully" reproduced strikes me as complete nonsense.
But this subject has been beat to death over and over and over...(makes one believe in eternal reincarnation Lol)
Maybe one day it will die for good, yay!!!
Sure, whatever floats one's boat.
For me, the philosophy that recordings should be "faithfully" reproduced strikes me as complete nonsense.
But this subject has been beat to death over and over and over...(makes one believe in eternal reincarnation Lol)
Maybe one day it will die for good, yay!!!
Probably not. Not as long as this forum got at least two members left.
anotherhobby
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Why do you want it to die? That doesn't even make sense? Don't we want to promote learning about audio? This thread established:But this subject has been beat to death over and over and over...(makes one believe in eternal reincarnation Lol)
Maybe one day it will die for good, yay!!!
- Stereo subs can indeed have noticable spacial benefits on recordings with stereo bass
- Stereo subs don't seem to have downsides when listening to content with non stereo bass
- As a downside, stereo subs may have frequency resopnse dips in each channel when listening to content with stereo bass, if those channels have individual dips. This seems quite likely with only 2 subs, less likely with 4 subs.
Sokel
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Great summary.
My apologies if you thought i meant the sub's subject should die....
I meant the faithful reproduction subject should die....
And yep, by all means, subs are one of the best things to experiment with, imo.
Digital_Thor
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I believe that it might seem logical to place two subwoofers close to the mains speakers - IF - the main speaker does not have the ability to play deep bass by themselves. But If you do have mains, that can play down to around 50 Hz at full level. Then it makes more sense to place the subwoofers somewhere else, to create a more smooth overall response, by taking advantage of the longer wavelengths and smaller room acoustics.
I would also argue that it makes no sense at all to use cross-overs at low frequencies, like we do at higher frequencies. Crossing mains to subwoofers, should be with an overlap, to create a smooth transition and wider sweet spot - works great here.
LFE channels are not stereo. They are usually made to relive surround products from heavy loads, so that a dedicated subwoofer can carry the burden of the lowest and most energy dense response of our human perception.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/the-misunderstood-01-lfe-channel-in-51-digital-surround-sound/
The mains create the stereo effect. The lower we go in frequency, the more it's just a "chaos" of reflections, and we definitely do not hear a single direct sound anymore. Unless - something is wrongly adjusted, build, designed... etc.
And stereo subs...? Go for 3 or 4 like me. Then it's much smoother, and the sound changes way less, as you move around. My subwoofers are all over the room, where they fit the most practically and where they have a different response, each of them. Then the overlap and DSP fixes the rest.
I would also argue that it makes no sense at all to use cross-overs at low frequencies, like we do at higher frequencies. Crossing mains to subwoofers, should be with an overlap, to create a smooth transition and wider sweet spot - works great here.
LFE channels are not stereo. They are usually made to relive surround products from heavy loads, so that a dedicated subwoofer can carry the burden of the lowest and most energy dense response of our human perception.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/the-misunderstood-01-lfe-channel-in-51-digital-surround-sound/
The mains create the stereo effect. The lower we go in frequency, the more it's just a "chaos" of reflections, and we definitely do not hear a single direct sound anymore. Unless - something is wrongly adjusted, build, designed... etc.
And stereo subs...? Go for 3 or 4 like me. Then it's much smoother, and the sound changes way less, as you move around. My subwoofers are all over the room, where they fit the most practically and where they have a different response, each of them. Then the overlap and DSP fixes the rest.
anotherhobby
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This doesn't have anything to do with multi-channel audio and an LFE channel. This is about 2 channel stereo only, where LFE does not exist. This is also why crossovers are being used to integrate subwoofers with mains. I also have 4 subs like you, except mine are split into two channels. It makes listening to 2 channel music that has stereo bass sound more spacious, among other things. Another example is that imaging is better on bass players that are biased to one side in Jazz.
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Digital_Thor
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I only mixed in the LFE part, because there was talk of AVR's.
I run my 4 subs divided in two groups too. So the two on my left is connected to the signal from the left mains channel - and then in the same way on the right channel.
My system consist of a 10 channel Pre/DSP/DAC that can mix channels anyway you would like - even like 1/3 of one channel with 2/3 of another. So I can combine them equally when measuring the summed response to find the best way to avoid dips, and then divide them up into "stereo" when playing back music.
I consider below around a 100 Hz to be too low to really give an idea of where bass comes from, and I believe that localization is found way higher in frequency in upper mid-bass and beyond. I can understand that this could change with 15" mid-bass's, cardioid and other ways of controlling the lower frequency beaming. But with normal smaller woofers in narrow cabinets, then I believe that sound plays almost equally in all directions, letting the room be almost totally dominant - removing most chances of direct sound and therefore spatial stereo cues, that could give hints of the placement of the musician.
Going from a classical speaker design with almost any midrange and tweeter combo, to a waveguided tweeter and equally sized midrange, was my way of coming closer to a good stereo image. Then I tried coax, going from BMS, Seas and now KEF, which is definitely something that helped med localize instruments and singers way better in the sound field - not the woofer and not the subwoofers - in whatever arrangement I've tried.
All my 4 subwoofers have different tuning, different LP and HP, different EQ and different cross-over frequencies. And they all, more or less overlap with my mains, that both play down to around 50 Hz, with a smooth roll-off, that start starts from around 80Hz and slowly drop - to avoid too much phase-wrap - therefore easing up on the total integration with the subs, giving a smoother overall response at a larger area of the room.
This is not my idea - I'm just trying to do what I have read from Earl Geddes' papers and long thread on diyaudio. And presently it works pretty well
At some point, it can be fun with some practical tests so that people can listen for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
For this test to work, you must have at least two subwoofers set up in a stereo configuration.
I created a 30-second long audio track of pink noise that has a low-pass filter at 60 Hz with a roll-off slope of 12 dB/octave.
And this is what I hear:
1. I can clearly hear the sound coming from the left side of my room for the first 6 seconds.
2. For the next 6 seconds the sound shifts to a central point right in front of me.
3. Now the sound clearly shifts to the right side of the room.
4. The sound is now back to the central point right in front of me.
5. And this is where the interesting things happen and what I think David Griesinger is talking about. The bass sound is no longer clearly heard from a central point right in front of me, instead, now it has a more enveloping characteristic that fills my listening room in a completely different way.
To me, it's pretty clear that low-frequency content recorded in stereo, and reproduced with at least two subwoofers in a stereo configuration can add envelopment to the overall sound.
For this test to work, you must have at least two subwoofers set up in a stereo configuration.
I created a 30-second long audio track of pink noise that has a low-pass filter at 60 Hz with a roll-off slope of 12 dB/octave.
- The first 6 seconds of the track is the left channel playing alone.
- The next 6 seconds (6-12s) are both channels playing together but reduced by 3 dB to get the level matched.
- The next 6 seconds (12-18s) is the right channel playing alone.
- The next 6 seconds (18-24s) is back to both channels playing together, yet again with a reduced level by 3 dB (this part is the same as #2)
- The last 6 seconds (24-30s) are both channels playing together. But this time the left channel is delayed by 35 ms and the right channel is increased by 3 dB to somewhat simulate a stereo recording of the bass sound coming from a place closer to the right channel.
And this is what I hear:
1. I can clearly hear the sound coming from the left side of my room for the first 6 seconds.
2. For the next 6 seconds the sound shifts to a central point right in front of me.
3. Now the sound clearly shifts to the right side of the room.
4. The sound is now back to the central point right in front of me.
5. And this is where the interesting things happen and what I think David Griesinger is talking about. The bass sound is no longer clearly heard from a central point right in front of me, instead, now it has a more enveloping characteristic that fills my listening room in a completely different way.
To me, it's pretty clear that low-frequency content recorded in stereo, and reproduced with at least two subwoofers in a stereo configuration can add envelopment to the overall sound.
At some point, it can be fun with some practical tests so that people can listen for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
For this test to work, you must have at least two subwoofers set up in a stereo configuration.
I created a 30-second long audio track of pink noise that has a low-pass filter at 60 Hz with a roll-off slope of 12 dB/octave.
Here is the sound clip: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a4ike3s1s1bwmp7/Bass L, L+R, R, L+R, L (35ms delay)+R.wav?dl=0
- The first 6 seconds of the track is the left channel playing alone.
- The next 6 seconds (6-12s) are both channels playing together but reduced by 3 dB to get the level matched.
- The next 6 seconds (12-18s) is the right channel playing alone.
- The next 6 seconds (18-24s) is back to both channels playing together, yet again with a reduced level by 3 dB (this part is the same as #2)
- The last 6 seconds (24-30s) are both channels playing together. But this time the left channel is delayed by 35 ms and the right channel is increased by 3 dB to somewhat simulate a stereo recording of the bass sound coming from a place closer to the right channel.
And this is what I hear:
1. I can clearly hear the sound coming from the left side of my room for the first 6 seconds.
2. For the next 6 seconds the sound shifts to a central point right in front of me.
3. Now the sound clearly shifts to the right side of the room.
4. The sound is now back to the central point right in front of me.
5. And this is where the interesting things happen and what I think David Griesinger is talking about. The bass sound is no longer clearly heard from a central point right in front of me, instead, now it has a more enveloping characteristic that fills my listening room in a completely different way.
To me, it's pretty clear that low-frequency content recorded in stereo, and reproduced with at least two subwoofers in a stereo configuration can add envelopment to the overall sound.
But this still doesn't prove whether two subs in dual mono configuration will give you the same spatial sensation when playing regular music (where part of the channel-specific material + harmonics will be reproduced by your speakers).
It proves that subwoofers set up in stereo configuration can add to the spatial sensation, which subwoofers set up in mono can never do.
When it comes to what stereo adds to the equation for the low end, it got very little to do with "if we can hear the directional cues of these low frequencies or not", what is making the difference is the phase differences that occur in the room when at least two subwoofers are playing separate things, which in turn will add to a more enveloping sound in the listening room.
This doesn't mean higher frequencies don't add to the spatial sensation as well, but that is a discussion for another thread.
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