Stereo preamp for TV and LS50 Meta + subwoofer

[SeanTek]

I have been running my TV with a pair of KEF LS50 Metas and a KC92 subwoofer, with MiniDSP Flex HT and a Buckeye Hypex NC502MP 2-channel amplifier. I want to go a different route, so can you all give me recommendations on an HDMI ARC/eARC-capable stereo preamp with subwoofer support, with or without network streaming?

The LS50 Metas + Buckeye Hypex NC502MP amp combination is a clear and noticeable step up from a soundbar. Unfortunately, however, the Flex HT has proven to be too complicated for my family (and for the inputs). The audio system does not work smoothly a lot of the time. The main problem appears to be that downmixing to high-res 2.1 does not always happen because one of three problems occur: 1. the source thinks it can send bitstream audio (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.) in which case the Flex HT outputs no sound, 2. the source outputs 7.1 (which turns out to be kind of useless) which requires the Flex HT to downmix to stereo (and the volume balance does not sound right, or the center channel is not properly distributed or audible), or 3. the audio volume simply is too low to be enjoyable.

I decided on the LS50 Metas instead of the LS50 Wireless II because I wanted better amplification without idle hissing. But now I need a way for the TV/source components to reliably output high-res audio signals, in ways that get my speakers to play with zero fuss.

I believe I need a "stereo preamp" that takes HDMI ARC/eARC input, and that outputs RCA or XLR stereo to my chosen amplifier, plus RCA or XLR to the subwoofer. I do not need USB or analog inputs.

At the "low end", Arylic BP50 ($99) has been recommended (although ASR gave it a headless panther). It supports Bluetooth (AptX HD) but no other streaming/network features. This only has ARC, not eARC, but if I'm strictly doing stereo is eARC even needed?

If I want to go higher, at some price point I am seeing "network streamers". For this application, is a network streamer just a preamp with Internet connectivity so it can stream media and decode it to stereo analog outputs? If there is a TV in the mix, how is a "network streamer" really any better than a trusty Apple TV 4K connected to a stereo preamp? (Basically it seems that Apple TV 4K + stereo preamp = network streamer.)

WiiM Ultra seems to be a capable streamer at $329.

Since I am only doing stereo, is there going to be any meaningful difference between getting the audio data via TOSLINK, versus HDMI? Note that Apple TV 4K does not support TOSLINK, so this question is more about whether TOSLINK from the TV, or TOSLINK from other sources such as Blu-Ray players or game consoles, will have any meaningful differences in user experience or in sound quality.

If I changed back to a soundbar solution, I would have peace of mind knowing that the soundbar is getting eARC bitstream data and is doing all that fancy "Dolby Atmos stuff" (handwaves) without fiddling with multiple speakers and dedicated home theater receiver/AV processor equipment. I am confused however if the "Dolby Atmos stuff" really makes all that much of a difference, compared to genuinely good stereo speakers being fed a basic stereo signal. What do you all think?

 

[Power Pop 23]

I have been running my TV with a pair of KEF LS50 Metas and a KC92 subwoofer, with MiniDSP Flex HT and a Buckeye Hypex NC502MP 2-channel amplifier. I want to go a different route, so can you all give me recommendations on an HDMI ARC/eARC-capable stereo preamp with subwoofer support, with or without network streaming?

The LS50 Metas + Buckeye Hypex NC502MP amp combination is a clear and noticeable step up from a soundbar. Unfortunately, however, the Flex HT has proven to be too complicated for my family (and for the inputs). The audio system does not work smoothly a lot of the time. The main problem appears to be that downmixing to high-res 2.1 does not always happen because one of three problems occur: 1. the source thinks it can send bitstream audio (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.) in which case the Flex HT outputs no sound, 2. the source outputs 7.1 (which turns out to be kind of useless) which requires the Flex HT to downmix to stereo (and the volume balance does not sound right, or the center channel is not properly distributed or audible), or 3. the audio volume simply is too low to be enjoyable.

I decided on the LS50 Metas instead of the LS50 Wireless II because I wanted better amplification without idle hissing. But now I need a way for the TV/source components to reliably output high-res audio signals, in ways that get my speakers to play with zero fuss.

I believe I need a "stereo preamp" that takes HDMI ARC/eARC input, and that outputs RCA or XLR stereo to my chosen amplifier, plus RCA or XLR to the subwoofer. I do not need USB or analog inputs.

At the "low end", Arylic BP50 ($99) has been recommended (although ASR gave it a headless panther). It supports Bluetooth (AptX HD) but no other streaming/network features. This only has ARC, not eARC, but if I'm strictly doing stereo is eARC even needed?

If I want to go higher, at some price point I am seeing "network streamers". For this application, is a network streamer just a preamp with Internet connectivity so it can stream media and decode it to stereo analog outputs? If there is a TV in the mix, how is a "network streamer" really any better than a trusty Apple TV 4K connected to a stereo preamp? (Basically it seems that Apple TV 4K + stereo preamp = network streamer.)

WiiM Ultra seems to be a capable streamer at $329.

Since I am only doing stereo, is there going to be any meaningful difference between getting the audio data via TOSLINK, versus HDMI? Note that Apple TV 4K does not support TOSLINK, so this question is more about whether TOSLINK from the TV, or TOSLINK from other sources such as Blu-Ray players or game consoles, will have any meaningful differences in user experience or in sound quality.

If I changed back to a soundbar solution, I would have peace of mind knowing that the soundbar is getting eARC bitstream data and is doing all that fancy "Dolby Atmos stuff" (handwaves) without fiddling with multiple speakers and dedicated home theater receiver/AV processor equipment. I am confused however if the "Dolby Atmos stuff" really makes all that much of a difference, compared to genuinely good stereo speakers being fed a basic stereo signal. What do you all think?

Yes,

Consider auditioning the WiiM Ultra - it will provide the fidelity you seek via HDMI and the ease of use for your family.


Occasionally Linkplay sells refurbished WiiM Ultra preamplifiers - with a one year warranty - for $239 at their outlet store on Ebay.

Inventory of the WiiM Ultra goes in and 'out of stock' regularly.

WiiM Ultra Music Streamer & Digital Preamp | 3.5" Touchscreen | Space Gray | eBay

Customize your sound experience with tailored EQ settings. Add a powered subwoofer for deep, cinematic bass. Looks Good, Sounds Great: The WiiM Ultra redefines your audio experience with its sleek aluminum design and premium components.

www.ebay.com

 

[Redacted]

I'm not sure what TV output you are currently using, but most users probably use ARC or eARC outputs from TVs into stereos (if they don't use use soundbars) - I think you are saying you want to do the same.
The easiest route is probably a streamer (as opposed to some device that only does HDMI to say, line level stereo) and you'll get the advantage of it turning on with the TV and using TV remote to control volume (CEC).
My own streaming amp work great with my TV, but you may look at Wiim streamers, as you already have a great amp.
You may have to select stereo PCM for the ARC/eARC output in your TV setup (true for my TV, and "auto" does not work) as the TV does the conversion from multichannel to simple stereo. In my TV there are no controls for selecting bit rate or bit depth, or any mixing of the contribution if multichannels (it's a fixed formula). Maybe some TVs are better than others for downmix controls?

I'm guessing you are using the miniDSP to split bass from the stereo signal. With many streamers, they have a sub out port that should drive an active sub just fine. You may not need the miniDSP!

 

[Marc v E]

I have the WiiM ultra as a desktop streamer. Stability and user friendliness is great, as is the eq.

If I understand your question correctly it would be plugged in by hdmi or toslink. Both will work fine when the wiim is receiving a stereo pcm signal. (standard cd). Configuration for that needs to be done in your tv.

The only difference is that toslink is isolated from ground noise, which can sometimes help if you hear it through your speakers. Toslink is limited to 96 khz iirc, so hdmi offers a higher bandwith for signals that require that. Like video for instance. In your case only audio is transmitted to the streamer/preamp, so one or the other cable shouldn't really matter.

In case that you want bitstream audio like DTS (and other formats associated with video) to be processed, you need an avr for that.

Summarising: downmixing to pcm stereo happens in your tv, or in an avr.

Ps: One final thing to be aware of is that dialogue in a movie often comes from the center channel and thus can seem muted or hard to understand when downmixed to stereo.

 

[SeanTek]

Okay. How would you all compare:

WiiM Ultra
Arylic LP100
Bluesound Node
Bluesound Node Icon

The big minus and probably the only feature minus of the WiiM Ultra is no AirPlay 2 support. As our family primarily uses iOS devices, lack of AirPlay 2 is a glaring miss. However with the TV (Sony Bravia) and Apple TV 4K in the mix, we can get all the usability of AirPlay 2 through those devices passing audio via HDMI. In that case, maybe it’s not a big deal, although it still is a “workaround” compared to the competition.

I am also interested in playing games with low latency audio and I don’t know how much these different network streamers worsen latency.

Do any of these streamers have a video signal fed back to the TV so you can watch some user interface while the device is playing music or while you are manipulating settings?

And also, what are y’all’s thoughts on connecting the DAC’s stereo RCA outs to the sub (KC92) and using the sub’s crossover to go to the stereo amps’ unbalanced inputs, as opposed to using the DAC’s subwoofer out for the sub only and the DAC’s RCA or XLR outputs to the stereo amps?

There are a lot of capable DACs in the market that don’t have sub out, which maybe I should reconsider if it’s fine to use the KC92’s crossovers.

 

[Marc v E]

Gaming significantly alters what you need: very fast response times, no lag, being primary. I would recommend you doublecheck but pretty sure you would need an avr with the specs to suit that need.

My best guess is you then need:
*Low input lag passthrough
Modern HDMI 2.1 AVRs from major brands generally handle this well.
The Wiim probably doesn't due to lag, but please doublecheck.

*Enough HDMI inputs
Count your devices (console, PC, streaming box, etc.) and make sure the AVR has room to grow.

 

[SeanTek]

Okay well that is a bummer and yes, the latency values on all of the listed products above (WiiM Ultra, Arylic LP100, Bluesound Node, Bluesound Node Icon) are >=50m and therefore not acceptable. They just aren't designed for that use case. Ironically the MiniDSP Flex HT has latencies as low as 4.5ms, but that requires most signal processing to be turned off (which goes against the point of the "MiniDSP" device). So what other options might there be?

 

[Marc v E]

Okay well that is a bummer and yes, the latency values on all of the listed products above (WiiM Ultra, Arylic LP100, Bluesound Node, Bluesound Node Icon) are >=50m and therefore not acceptable. They just aren't designed for that use case. Ironically the MiniDSP Flex HT has latencies as low as 4.5ms, but that requires most signal processing to be turned off (which goes against the point of the "MiniDSP" device). So what other options might there be?

The problem and the solution is which device is in the lead. With your current setup the tv has the central hub function, but that leaves a lag for all devices that are connected after that device. Adding a dsp based streamer after the tv only adds to lag time.

What the solution is, is making 1 central hub that receives the digital signal, does the dsp processing and after that is done, distributes the video signal to the tv and the audio signal to the speakers. An avr does exactly that and with a supplied microphone and automated eq gives you the best of both worlds: video/audio being in sync and 1 device that your family can operate with menus on the tv screen.

What device you need mostly depends on what kind of connections you need, gaming requirements and how good the eq capabilities need to be. The Denon x3800h is for example a very capable device. My recommendation would be to have a device that is capable in automated measurements for eq that can be manually altered to your preference. That gives a great result sound wise and ease of use to boot.

Ps: AI tools like Chatgpt are a very useful search engine when comparing devices in capabilities. For example when comparing the Denon x2900h with the x3900h it really helped me sift through the seemingly endless list of specs.

 

[john61ct]

Wiim Ultra, sometimes cheap as $250 from official Amazon store.

I think covers ALL your bases and a lot more for future flexibility, multi room

if desired get into REW with DSP, auto DRC with roomFit, tweak FR with PEQ, timing delay if

 

[john61ct]

If your quest for Audio SQ perfection requires too much latency

just play the video using a player that lets you delay to get perfect lip sync

Otherwise use presets to swap out "Music mode" vs Video watching

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I have a temporary 2.0 setup in my living room and I decided to use my trusty Marantz AVR from 2018 (has eARC). I could use my Wiim Ultra but I decided not too because I don't like how I can't delay the speakers independently and also multiple subwoofers would require a Minidsp 2x4HD anyway. Also, I don't like how the Wiim Ultra doesn't downmix the LFE when using stereo (I double checked: Why LFE Channel Is Missing During Dolby 5.1 Playback on a Single WiiM Device).

I recommend an AVR, I can't find the remote for mine and I used the Marantz app to reset everything and it turns on and off with hdmi cec through my TV when I use my Apple TV 4k remote. Also, I would choose an AVR because of EQ like A1 Evo Acoustix and Dirac.

If I can be bothered, I may try out my Minidsp Flex HTx in my living room.

 

[SeanTek]

Having considered the options, I decided to spend the allocated $300-400 range on an HDFury Arcana2. We will see how much it solves my "issues".

It's a TV/video/game playing home theater environment first, and a music player second. I was avoiding Apple TV 4K for years but got frustrated enough with Sony's built-in TV experience that I decided to go with a dedicated media player/streamerm and since we are an iOS family it's hard to beat Apple TV with Ethernet at $149. (There is also a Philips Hue Sync Box 8K in the mix.) This should also solve the latency issues because gaming box -> Philips Hue Sync Box 8K [4 HDMI inputs] -> HDFury Arcana2 -> MiniDSP Flex HT (4.5ms delay if programmed correctly) is as short of an audio path as one can get, and it mimics gaming box -> Philips Hue Sync Box 8K -> [AVR] with no pass through the TV.

The only thing lost is watching OTA TV and my family does not even remember how to watch scheduled programming anymore or that it even exists.

 

[SeanTek]

Having considered the options, I decided to spend the allocated $300-400 range on an HDFury Arcana2. We will see how much it solves my "issues".

It's a TV/video/game playing home theater environment first, and a music player second. I was avoiding Apple TV 4K for years but got frustrated enough with Sony's built-in TV experience that I decided to go with a dedicated media player/streamerm and since we are an iOS family it's hard to beat Apple TV with Ethernet at $149. (There is also a Philips Hue Sync Box 8K in the mix.) This should also solve the latency issues because gaming box -> Philips Hue Sync Box 8K [4 HDMI inputs] -> HDFury Arcana2 -> MiniDSP Flex HT (4.5ms delay if programmed correctly) is as short of an audio path as one can get, and it mimics gaming box -> Philips Hue Sync Box 8K -> [AVR] with no pass through the TV.

The only thing lost is watching OTA TV and my family does not even remember how to watch scheduled programming anymore or that it even exists.

I got the Arcana2 this afternoon. I plugged it in, and...nothing happened.

This is a very basic setup:

Apple TV 4K ->
Arcana2 to two devces:
HDMI Out: Sony Bravia TV
HDMI eARC Out: MiniDSP Flex HT

It's not working. Specifically, it says IN: 4K, T0: 4K, T1: off or not connected. I don't see any video onscreen on the Sony Bravia TV (75", 2020) and I don't hear any audio coming out of the Flex HT. When I connect Apple TV 4K to the Bravia TV (HDMI 1), and Flex HT to the Bravia TV (HDMI 3 / ARC-eARC out), it works. I can see video, and I can hear audio through the Flex HT.

I have some pictures if it helps.

What am I missing?